Muhammad Ali vs. Sonny Liston 11/16/64 Boston - what happens?

Good thread.
Although Liston was around 40 years old at that time, he had indeed prepared well.
Also, Ali was still learning and his chin wasn't that good yet. But Ali still had a speed advantage.

But I reckon Liston had a very good chance of winning. People close to Liston attested that Liston told them he saw a mistake that Ali makes, which he could exploit. Similar to how Schmelling saw Louis's flaw the first time they met.

 

liston wasnt no 40yrs of age, but thats for another debate. Reports seem to suggest he was in tip-top shape but then again Ali was ALWAYS in tip-top shape and was beginning to look more mature and defined as a heavy. You can see the difference in Ali physically between the 1st and 2nd fight and although the timeline is between the 2 fights, i think its safe to say he was morphing into a proper bonafide heavy physically at that time. Sonny may make it interesting for a round or 2 but theres only gonna be 1 winner, maybe a similar amount of rounds to the 1st fight. Ali stops him mid rounds

 

Ali by a decision.
A fight with a 1959 Sonny Liston would be much closer, if not different according to Emanuel steward.

 

My father & I went to watch Sonny train in Plymouth Mass. for the rematch. Got a chance to meet him and shake his hand. We saw him on the heavy bag and speed bag. He looked really good and newspaper said he was ready to go!

 

Not rhetorically, but how would Liston be different from the actual rematch?

If not for the postponement, he might’ve been better conditioned and somewhat better performed but his speed would be the same and the disparity between he and Ali in terms of hand and foot speed appeared to have increased since Miami. . If you believe in the phantom, maybe he still cops a flash KD but gets up quickly instead of lolling on the canvas.

If not, then Sonny takes the anchor punch and continues his thus far fruitless pursuit of Ali. Admittedly, the duration of the actual rematch isn’t ideal for extrapolation but if the fight continued trending the way it was, Ali progressively lays more hurt on Sonny the longer the fight goes. If Liston’s condition comes into play maybe it’s only in so far as how long Sonny can last taking it without being able to dish it equally in return. But then, if he hangs tough long enough for Ali to slow a bit, Sonny might get some more shots in to claw back a bit.

Liston still looked trim in Lewiston, about 215 lb, only about 3 lbs less than a heavy 218 lbs in Miami though he didn’t look quite as hard in Lewiston.

I wonder what weight Liston would’ve been if the orig. scheduled fight came off. If he was serious, I think that about 212 lbs would’ve been right on the money.

Finally, was Walcott the originally appointed ref? We def. need a different ref for this one. Fleischer also needs to be banned from entering the arena or at least be required to wear a gag.

 

Ali is never stopping a prepared Liston, he lacks the punching power to do so.

 

Ali looked better, faster and more confident once he was champion. He now knew without doubt that he could beat Liston. That must have given him an enormous physiological advantage - if he actually needed one! - I don't see how an earlier rematch would have produced any other result than an Ali victory.
Ali simply had Liston's number as he did George's 10 years later.

 

I do think had the rematch between Champion Muhammad Ali and challenger Sonny Liston had taken place on Nov 16 1964, Ali retains his title by a TKO 10. True Ali did not hit hard enough to kayo Sonny, but the accumulation of punches would have caused lacerations around the eyes of Liston, thus forcing a stoppage by the ring physician. Ali as champion in his first title reign from 1964-1967 was never floored, Henry Cooper accomplished that feat on June 18 1963, on May 21 1966, Ali gave Henry 14 stitches, TKO 6, no knockdown. Even though Liston was extremely talented, his age and stamina does catch up with him, also we do not know if the underworld again might have something to do with a rematch, one thing I do believe is that Liston would have not quit on his stool against the 22 year old champion.

 

Stopping an opponent isnt necessarily all about punching power. Accumulation of constant punishment does the job just the same, especially as the rounds go by and your fighting a guy over 10yrs younger than you. Doesnt help either if that guys muhammad ali. And whilst i concede that Ali wasnt the biggest puncher in the world powerwise, he most certainly wasnt the worst and, imo, punched his weight when he sat down on them. See big george and oscar and ask them. i dont think a stoppage on cuts, or an overwhelment of punishment resulting in a refs intervention, are out of the realms of possibility here

 

But that's the thing, if Liston is very well prepared, Ali ain't landing enough on him. So even though Ali can clearly win on points, he won't KO him.

 

A few things I'd like to adress here:
1. If Liston is prepared, an accumulation of punches ain't that realistic anymore, Liston will slip most of Ali's punches.
2. Ali's punching power increased in the 70s, due to his extra weight and him sitting on his punches more. He didn't really have that in the 60s.
3. 60's Ali didn't have as good a chin as 70's Ali, so he's more vulnerable when/if Liston lands.

 

i dont believe that you can grow whiskers. You can either take a punch or you cant. Alis chin came through purely because he was getting caught more as he got older, he could always take a punch. A 'prepared' Liston isnt really gonna offer much more. It may make the fight somewhat more competitive, and even thats debatable, but not to the extent it rewrites history, and im a liston fan

 

Actually, you can grow/improve whiskers.
Foreman also had a much better chin in the 90s than he had in the 70s.
The extra weight helps you absorb punches a lot better. Also, as you mature, so do your bones, they become thicker.
As for Ali's chin, it is quite clear it wasn't as good in the 60s as it was in the 70s.
In the 60s, a skinny cruiserweight in Cooper sent Ali to dreamworld with a single punch. Ali needed smelling salts to get back to planet Earth.
In the 70s, Shavers could not put Ali down with a single punch, though he clearly hurt him.

A prepared Liston will offer a hell of a lot more.
First of all, he won't get tired that fast.
Second of all, Liston already knew what Ali could bring to the table and he told those close to him he noticed a weakness in Ali that he could exploit.

 

Well there was a point when Ali’s hands began giving him trouble and the issue became worse over time. That could definitely effect his ability to punch to his full potential on a consistent basis.

I actually fail to see why some might see it as a lock that Ali couldn’t KO Liston. Perhaps it’s over fixation on the rematch and the bonafides of the phantom punch etc.

Go back to Miami. Punching in combination Ali CLEARLY wobbled Liston in rd 3 causing Sonny to back all the way to the ropes. The combo also happen to include at least one downward chopping right hand as well hooks and uppercuts underneath.

Ali could def. pull out a punch at times. Same misconception re Zaire. Ali, perfectly set to punch for a change, was hitting Foreman with terrific shots, twisting George’s head this way, that way and snapping it back heavily. Heavy punishment will accumulate and serve to deplete the tank also. George had a great chin so he was able to take it for a time. Ali just so happened to also CLEARLY stagger Foreman as early as Rd 3.

Ali’s final right hand was not a soft tip over shot on a tiring opponent (believe it, Ali happened to be fast tiring himself) It was a big punch which Foreman himself at least attested to. Ali also held back his left as Foreman spiralled to the canvas, if Ali let that one go Foreman would’ve been down for a lot longer.

The lumps and swellings on George’s face and forehead also lent to the proof of the power Ali was putting into his shots.