Muhammad Ali's title reign from 1964-1967

I've thought some about this, and also I see him breaking all kinds of records if not for the exile. I think Frazier and Norton always would be tough opponents for him, but I don't think he would have lost to them if not for the lay-off. Foreman probably wouldn't even rank among his great wins, just another big, powerful man that he made look clumsy and awkward.

I don't think he would have retired undefeated, though. He loved the spotlight too much to quit in time. Holmes could very well have been the first to defeat him, but just like in real life I don't think Holmes would have gotten much credit for this win.

 

Arguably Ali's best win is the Liston win. I think he would definately be top5 or higher just from his early career maybe No1. Many have Patterson top15. So who else has 2 top15 HWs on their resume?

Marciano? Boarderline but no one as good as Liston
Louis - no, not beat anyone as good as Liston
Jack Johnson - no and no
Holmes - best win is? Norton?
Frazier - doesn't get ALi on his ledger
Holyfield - arguably better wins but plenty of losses
Tyson - potentially as good wins, more dominant in prime but worse losses
LEwis - better wins
Dempsey - a level below but more exciting
Liston - NEXT
Bowe - avoided top comp

 

I don't think Tyson was more dominant in his prime. He didn't have wins that compare to the ones over Liston. And even if Douglas was the first to give him a really tough fight, Pinklon Thomas, Tucker and even Biggs all made Tyson look beatable IMO, and Bruno staggered him. Chuvalo did have his moments against Ali and Mildenberger lasted longer than most expected, but otherwise he was rarely troubled in his prime.

Coming up Tyson didn't have as much trouble with any opponent as Ali/Clay did with Jones and Cooper, though. But that was before his prime, strictly speaking.

 

I think Tysons comps underrated:

Holmes - ATG, overweight but blown away
Tucker - top level, difficult opponent, excellent jabber
Thomas - amazing jab and move boxer
Bruno - physical beast, athletic, amazing power with limitations
Spinks - ATG LHW
Smith - decent contender with good power
Tubbs - top prospect/contender
Biggs - top prospect/contender

I think overall it trumps Ali's 1960s, no one is as good as Liston but overall the comp is better

IF ALI RETIRED IN 1967 AND TYSON RETIRED 1990 (PRE-DOUGLAS), THEN WHO IS HIGHER? I SAY TYSON

 

I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from. Tyson looked very impressive up until Douglas, no doubt about that.

 

Liston was shot and past his prime.
Ali got little credit THAN for it, and I dont think they be changing there minds soon.

 

This one of the most stupid views that are frequently ventilated here IMO. No one, and I mean no one, thought Liston was shot before the fight, neither should they since he destroyed Patterson just 9 months prior. What exactly happened during these 9 months, or was it just a shot Liston that annihilated Patterson?

The truth is, if it hadn't been for Clay, Liston would probably continued to dominate for a large part of the 60's and no one would have even whispered about him being shot in 1964. This frankly ridicolous opinion have only come to life because some people can't stomach that Liston was schooled by Clay.

Did he prepare properly? No. Did he take Clay seriously enough? No. Was he shot? Hell, no.

 

haha then why was Clay an 8 to 1 underdog - Liston was undefeated in 10 years with only one loss on his record. Sure everyone thought he was past it after he had just murdered Patterson twice LOL. What a stupid post.

 

When was his prime, '60? Thats makes 3-4years removed, so pretty much a near prime ATG

 

He might of benefited in some ways from never coming back, or not being able to.

The 0 is a mystical thing, you know, and many of Ali's later performances left something to be desired, as did Norton and Futch being Ali's kryptonite.

 

Not to mention he'd fought all of a few rounds in the following years and was overconfident.

 

Yeah, you're right, anyone here could have beaten that version of Liston. He was such a push-over.

Funny, how everyone believed he was invincible at the time. But they only had the benefit of watching him train, while we have the benefit of knowing that Clay beat him easily two times. And since no one could beat big, bad Liston easily, he was of course shot when he met Clay. Crystal clear logic, isn't it?

 

So much would have changed if Ali quit in 67.

Foreman would have been champ throughout the 70s probably loosing to Holmes eventually.


I would still give the edge to Ali over Tyson because his win over Liston is a bigger deal than Tyson's over Spinks and an old Holmes.

Liston was an established champ, Ali was the underdog. Spinks hadnt done much at heavy other than beat Holmes and wasnt a long reigning champ like Liston was.

 

Hmm would Young still beat Foreman or would he have been better not having lost to Ali?? We would also have Shavers-Foreman on hand which would be fun while it lasted.

 

I have heard they paid sparing partners to make Liston look good. Also Liston quiting on his stool and the first round ko.

Its always like that, I rember during Tyson Holyfiled I, people were saying Holyfiled is about to deal with PRIME Tyson, once Holyfiled won, it was shot Tyson lol.
Liston was OLDER than Tyson was at the time of the first Ali fight. What almost must be rember in the last 2 years, Liston only fought Patterson, which was a first one ko both times. So he was pretty rusty going into his battle with Ali.