My argument for Sam Langford being #1 lb for lb all-time

:deal

Really outstanding job, Clay.

 

I can't disagree with you here. Johnson avoided him when he was champion because he knew the risks Sam posed as a fighter. Pound for pound all time, he's right up there in the top 5 I'd say. Wouldn't argue against him being in the top three.

 

Sergei, have you come across any listed weights for Sam in any of his fights earlier in 1903? I'd have to dig thru my files but I'm not sure I have any reported weights for him in other bouts earlier in the year. I haven't checked what I wrote in my book about other fights he had that year yet. You've got me curious now as to whether or not he ever fought under 133 pounds that year. It wouldn't surprise me if he didn't though. I suspect by then he'd already grown into a welterweight.

 

In the USA the generally recognized limit for lightweights was 133 pounds at the time. Boston Daily Globe reported 140 pounds for Langford, as did the Boston Journal (two pounds over the agreed 138 ), as did Pawtucket (RI) Evening Times (which, I believe, is the same report as in Boston Herald).

The Associated Press simply reported that Langford was 2 pounds overweight.

Baltimore Sun reported Langford was over 140.

Al Herford told to a reporter of Baltimore Sun:

Then Langford got on and he raised the beam, which meant he was a lot over the 138 pounds. Well, I pushed the slide of the scales up to 140 and at that it still stayed up, but Kevin then stepped up and said, "Jump off, Sam, don't let him see your weight, and Langford got off. I am positive he weighed 142 pounds. After that he ate a large steak and vegetables, and I am positive he surely weighed 145 pounds, when he entered the ring.

 

Interesting, I imagine it's not impossible that Herford was trying to do some damage control but either way Sam was over the agreed upon weight limit by all accounts, including his own.

 

Langford fought at 135 lbs limit in January 1902, in amateur boxing tournament.
I think it was in the scrap-book I sent last time, where Langford and Arthur Cote were supposed to meet at 138 pounds on October 5, 1903, "although it was apparent that Langford outweighed his man by several pounds". Those are the only mentions of Langford's weight I have for 1902-1903.

 

:hey

 

Jack Johnson has a case to be rated over Sam Langford P4P, starting as a middleweight and actually becoming a great heavyweight champion. I'd also make the case that the talent field in the earl 1900s-1920 wasn't very deep

1. The woulda, coulda, shoulda titles? Against Gans, he weighed 140lbs, this isn't a lightweight, it's a welterweight. At welterweight he maybe deserved the draw verdict to go his way

So where is he the best in any weight class? Heavy? No way. Lightweight, no, Welter, no. Middle/Light HEavy, well no depth of middleweight/LHW opposition but based on his achivements weighing around these weight classes he gains props. I wouldn't rate him as the best middle or LHW ever though

Number of titles and weight classes can be impressive, but that alone isn't that impressive. Manny Pacquaio has 8 titles over 10 divisions but few would have him top 5 in any of those weight classes or consider him top20 P4P of all time

2. He did fight many of the best numerous times, do numerous wins over the same fighter much better than dominating a fighter once? I mean it surely takes more of a toll on the body but does it prove to be a better performance? I'd say no

3. This is an achievement, however against the best heavyweight (Johnson) he was dominated, against the second best heavyweight (Wills) he lost the series something like 3-2-17 (off the top of my head), against the next 3 best heavyweights (McVey, JEanette, JimJohnson) he got the better of them but lost and drew fights too

OK so he was 5'6 fighting men who were 5'10-6'3, Mike Tyson was 5'10 fighting mean from 6'2-6'6, that's practically the same disadvantage, where do you rate the more dominant and more proven Tyson P4P?

4. He did fight everyone, performed very well, but as pointed out above against the best wasn't the most dominant

5. Langford on film looks good for his time, although technically there are flaws in what he does, boxing probably stepped up a level in it's skill level in future generations

6. I think he's a plausible number 1 but I also see arguments for him not being top 10, it's all subjective

 

"Manny Pacquaio has 8 titles over 10 divisions but few would have him top 5 in any of those weight classes or consider him top20 P4P of all time."

Geez, there are so many titles and divisions today that you can't really use this as a basis for comparison anymore.

I think one of the things about Langford that impressed me so much was how many guys who were so much bigger (taller and heavier) he not only defeated but knocked out along the way. I'd have to go back and look at Johnson's early career but I don't really remember him doing anything, if much like that. In fact, it's easier for me to remember him fighting guys like Langford or Ketchel who he outweighed by 30-35 pounds. In fact, I wonder if he didn't outweigh Joe Choynski when he lost to him. Clearly he outweighed Tommy Burns when he won the title from him. Johnson was a great fighter but I've never really considered him when it comes to talking about p4p. I sure wish he would have given Sam one more chance to fight him after Sam had become a light heavy/heavyweight. It's unfortunate that the only time they fought Langford was a young middleweight.

But, as you say, it's all subjective. I personally consider him a top five pick when it comes to p4p consideration but there's certainly room for many others in the conversation.

 

Guys. no one had a career like Langford .. no one fought more all time greats .. no one fought better big men out of his own weight class ... he was simply astonishing ... he has been my all time pound for pound pick for a long time ...

 

ahem... No he doesn't. Fitz has a much better case than Johnson, actually being a champ at middle, or even considering the color bar "championship class". Johnson did nothing at middleweight so far as I can remember. In Fitz's case he went on to be an utter man slayer at heavy, then dropped back down to win light heavy.