My attempt at a top 50 heavyweights and some honorable mentions.

Firpo and Fulton were Dempsey left overs who together lasted less that a full 3 rds with Jack.
Firpo wasn't in top shape for Wills and was knocked down by a punch on the break
Martin was 40 years old when Wills beat him.
Jeannette was 40 years old when Wills beat him.
Smith was totally washed up, having his last fight," I only went down for the boat ride".
Wills didn't begin to beat any of the black trio until they started to slide.
It isn't just who you beat, its also WHEN you beat them!

 

Sullivan and Corbett refused to fight Jackson when they were champions.
Jeffries refused to fight Martin,McVey,Johnson as champion.
Hart refused to fight another black after Johnson.
Willard refused to do so too.Wills was a top challenger for him.
Tunney never fought a black fighter ,Wills and Godfrey were top contenders during his reign .

Should we take their names off of the list of Heavyweight Champions?

 

Holmes ducking those fighters was wrong but it doesn't IMO demote to #16, if Larry was a coward would he have fought Shavers twice ?? Would he have fought two young talented HW's like Witherspoon and Smith in the 80's when he was his mid 30's ??

If you want to nitpick for example you could also lower Lewis for not re-matching Vitali and I also remember in 1996 he accepted 4 million dollars to step aside as Tyson's WBC mandatory, was that a duck ?? Lewis had not fully recovered mentally from the McCall KO and after the tough fight Mercer gave him I don't believe at that particular time he truly believed he could beat Tyson.

Another example of nitpicking is Holyfield was clearly on PED's during the 90's - Evan Fields, plus his heart trouble and possibly hair loss - all symptoms of steroid use.

Do those examples demote Lewis and Holyfield ?? IMO no but the point I'm trying to make is if you want to discredit a fighter if you look hard enough you can usually find something.

 

I never said that Johnson's name should be taken off. Quite the opposite. All I said is that he loses the same points as the white fighters, maybe a little less.

This one is a totally moot point. Those who did not defend against the best have all been docked.

 

Shaver and Smith were not good fighters except that they had power. They were both beaten much more impressively by others.

Witherspoon was a close fight that many believed at the time Larry lost.

Lewis retired at 37 years of age after a good run. It is not like he hung around picking easy fights. A man has a right to retire.

As for McCall...I post the clip of the stoppage. It was a gargage stoppage. We don't know who would have won that fight because a fighter that was up at 5 was TKOd.

I said as much. Holyfield could be as high has 3 if not for the PEDS. I said in the initial post he could be a bit higher or off the list entirely. We don't know and have to do the best we can with these sorts of cases.

 

Signing to fight them means **** all, he needs to actually fight them. How the hell does signing prove anything?

 

If Anthony Joshua signed to fight contenders but the fights didn't happen and he fought no-hopers he would within a year or two lose credibility and respect and no longer be seen as champion. The same should be true for Johnson.

 

Godfrey was not an outstanding contender during Tunney's reign and Wills had fallen from contention. I don't see how this impacts his legacy.

 

Larry Holmes is one of the greatest heavyweights of all time in my personal opinion. Definitely top 10 I have him 8th. And many other people agree with me. Also many don’t and I’d say the he’s normally rated in the top 5 heavyweights of all time on most lists. The only heavyweights I see him regularly rated behind are Ali and Louis. Your so far off with your ranking of Holmes it’s unbelievable. He was champion from 1978-1985 7 years and 3 months. He was the WBC champion and the lineal heavyweight champion of the world which as everyone knows go’s back to John L Sullivan. He cleared out the heavyweight division in his era. You mention he ducked Page and Thomas but nobody genuinely believes they would beat Holmes. Page lost to Berbick Bey and Witherspoon. Holmes best them all. And Thomas also lost to Berbick. He beat everyone put in front of him in his prime years. Some great fighters who are underrated.

Shavers x2, Norton, Ocasio, Weaver x2, Berbick, Leon Spinks, Snipes, Cooney, Witherspoon, Marvis Frazier, Bonecrusher Smith x2, Bey, Williams, Mercer.

Lost close decisions to Michael Spinks x2, Holyfield, McCall, Nielsen.

Larry doesn’t have the best resume of all time, that’s Ali but it’s a better resume than most of your top 10 heavyweights. He still beat a who’s who of the early to mid 80s.

I don’t include the Ali fight because of Ali’s fighting condition.

He went 48-0 at heavyweight in the 70s and 80s. Incredible

Holmes was only in boxing to make money. But he archived so much more.

I’m not going to go into the head to head aspect because this thread isn’t about that. But still Holmes beats everyone ever head to head.

 

I have discussed Holmes do death and will just refer to my previous posts, but talking up his resume is absurd. The couple of high quality opponents on his records are fights where a lot of people think he got beat. Bonecrusher Smith and Ernie Shaver are not guys that ATG resumes are built on. Norton and Witherspoon could be if they were good, solid wins. A lot of Holmess opponents were shameful, and I will say it one more time--he openly ducked opponents, for which he gets docked.

You are the second guy who makes the "most people have him higher" argument, so let me repeat one more time: it used to be people had him a lot lower. The quixotic 90's comeback rejuvenated him quit a bit, but certain fighter go up and down, and I think in 30 years when new generations are looking at his resume, it will normalize quite a bit.

Well, I guess I did do another Holmes post. In any event, you can go back and look at the more extensive posts, or else, thanks for your contribution to the thread. Please feel free to post your top 50, or 20, or whatever you want to do. On mine, Holmes stays exactly where he is.

 

It doesn't anyway because his reign was so brief. He fought the Dempsey rematch, one other credible guy, and hung them up. Its not like Dempsey or Johnson who had years to make the fights.

 

Who in your top 10 have a better resume of wins?

 

Just about all of the.

Ali: Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Patterson...that's five ATGs.

Marciano: Louis, Charles, Walcott, Moore...that's four ATGs. Plus legit #1 and #2 contenders (the kind Larry ducked).

Lewis: Tyson, Holyfield, Vitklit, and a a string of very dangerous contenders.

Foreman: Frazier, Norton, Moorer...

Frazier- Prime Ali (enough said right there).

And on and on.

 

A really poor response from you here.

Ali yes I’ve already said has the best resume of all time. For his 70s not his 60s resume.

Marciano lol. 3 fighters you mentioned were all 38 years old plus. Enough said?

Lewis yes has a reasonable resume but not as good as Holmes. Tyson lol? I didn’t include Ali in Holmes resume because he was so shot and you use Tyson as the first name on Lewis’s list. Holyfield was a good win but Lewis defo lost the rematch.

Foreman and Frazier have no where near the depth of Holmes resume. Both great fighters but unfortunately not in the Holmes class.

 

Well who rates him the greatest? Do you have links to credible ratings? Or are these many people YouTube posters or even Larry’s family members? Not sure I have seen this yet?

I am a fairly big Holmes appreciator and rate him 3-4 with Lewis. I agree 16 or even outside of the top 10 has an agenda and no credibility...but then again so does 1.

Perhaps if he had unified and fought those he missed, maybe he could enter conversation with Ali and Louis but I am not sure even then.

I don’t see it