My best pick of Top-20 "Heavy" champs from 1887-2011. WORD!

MRBILL · Jun 21, 2010

Folks, load your guns and aim, cuz here we go:

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Lewis
6. Foreman
7. V.K.
8. Holy
9. Tyson
10. Marciano / Frazier / '92 Bowe (Take a pick)
11. Liston / Dempsey (tie)
12. W.K.
13. Jimmy Jeff
14. Charles
15. Walcott
16. Tunney
17. Timmy Spoon (ABC Champ)
18. Baer
19. Patterson
20. Ken Norton (WBC Paper Champ) 1978...

NOW! I honestly think Sonny Liston was a great heavyweight overall, but, he was a lousy title holder.... Though I do believe on the whole, Liston would prolly murder both "Frazier and Marciano" in a battle of prime heavies.... Beating a peak Dempsey would be a task for Sonny...... But, beating a '92 Bowe, might prove tricky there.?.?

I also grew some balls by rating both "Spoon and Norton" within the the top-20 as well...... Again, ordinary to lousy champions, but damn good fighters when focused and determined......

Same with Riddick Bowe....... A highly skilled heavyweight when focused and motivated, but generally rates as a lousy world champ......

Bowe slipped pretty far from Nov. 1992 to Nov. 1993....... 235 to 246 pounds tells the story there......

In greatness, Patterson rates above Norton, but in a fight, I think peak Norton hammers peak Patty within 10 to 12 rds....... Norton too big and strong for the smaller and weaker Floyd.....

MR.BILLbbb:hey:goodhat

tommygun711 · Jun 21, 2010

MRBILL said: ↑

Folks, load your guns and aim, cuz here we go:

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Lewis
6. Foreman
7. V.K.
8. Holy
9. Tyson
10. Marciano / Frazier / '92 Bowe (Take a pick)
11. Liston / Dempsey (tie)
12. W.K.
13. Jimmy Jeff
14. Charles
15. Walcott
16. Tunney
17. Timmy Spoon (ABC Champ)
18. Baer
19. Patterson
20. Ken Norton (WBC Paper Champ '78)

NOW! I honestly think Sonny Liston was a great heavyweight overall, but, he was a lousy title holder.... Though I do believe on the whole, Liston would prolly murder both "Frazier and Marciano" in a battle of prime heavies.... Beating a peak Dempsey would be a task for Sonny...... But, beating a '92 Bowe, might prove tricky there.?.?

Good list, but

I also grew some balls by rating both "Spoon and Norton" within the the top-20 as well...... Again, ordinary to lousy champions, but damn good fighters when focused and determined......

Same with Riddick Bowe....... A highly skilled heavyweight when focused and motivated, but generally rates as a lousy world champ......

Bowe slipped pretty far from Nov. 1992 to Nov. 1993....... 235 to 246 pounds tells the story there......

In greatness, Patterson rates above Norton, but in a fight, I think peak Norton hammers peak Patty within 10 to 12 rds....... Norton too big and strong for the smaller and weaker Floyd.....

MR.BILLbbb:hey:goodhat
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....
Vitali does not belong on that list. Neither does Norton.

MRBILL · Jun 21, 2010

tommygun711 said: ↑

....
Vitali does not belong on that list. Neither does Norton.
Click to expand...

I said load them guns up and aim....... Norton is a "Haller" and V.K. will in the Hall later on, as well........ It makes for a good debate....
:deal

MR.BILL

Note:

I may be inclined to drop off Norton and switch him out with Max Schmeling, but I cannot decide about that......

dmille · Jun 21, 2010

If you're gonna make a top 20, don't a tie, show some stones and make a decision.

RockysSplitNose · Jun 21, 2010

MRBILL said: ↑

Folks, load your guns and aim, cuz here we go:

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Lewis
6. Foreman
7. V.K.
8. Holy
9. Tyson
10. Marciano / Frazier / '92 Bowe (Take a pick)
11. Liston / Dempsey (tie)
12. W.K.
13. Jimmy Jeff
14. Charles
15. Walcott
16. Tunney
17. Timmy Spoon (ABC Champ)
18. Baer
19. Patterson
20. Ken Norton (WBC Paper Champ '78)

NOW! I honestly think Sonny Liston was a great heavyweight overall, but, he was a lousy title holder.... Though I do believe on the whole, Liston would prolly murder both "Frazier and Marciano" in a battle of prime heavies.... Beating a peak Dempsey would be a task for Sonny...... But, beating a '92 Bowe, might prove tricky there.?.?

I also grew some balls by rating both "Spoon and Norton" within the the top-20 as well...... Again, ordinary to lousy champions, but damn good fighters when focused and determined......

Same with Riddick Bowe....... A highly skilled heavyweight when focused and motivated, but generally rates as a lousy world champ......

Bowe slipped pretty far from Nov. 1992 to Nov. 1993....... 235 to 246 pounds tells the story there......

In greatness, Patterson rates above Norton, but in a fight, I think peak Norton hammers peak Patty within 10 to 12 rds....... Norton too big and strong for the smaller and weaker Floyd.....

MR.BILLbbb:hey:goodhat
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Good to see Jack Johnson up there at three - good shout - good effort putting Witherspoon on there too - i think he whooped Larry big time

Good to see 92' Bowe up there aswell - great fighter on THE night - good work Billy boy - ps who are your personal favourites on the list btw?

McGrain · Jun 21, 2010

So Bill, this is mostly a head to head list, but with added "points" for a good title reign?

tommygun711 · Jun 21, 2010

MRBILL said: ↑

I said load them guns up and aim....... Norton is a "Haller" and V.K. will in the Hall later on, as well........ It makes for a good debate....
:deal

MR.BILL

Note:

I may be inclined to drop off Norton and switch him out with Max Schmeling, but I cannot decide about that......
Click to expand...

By the way, you have klitschko in your top 10, but not Liston?
Come on!
Liston is much better then you make him out to be. He was truly an all time great.

MRBILL · Jun 21, 2010

dmille said: ↑

If you're gonna make a top 20, don't a tie, show some stones and make a decision.
Click to expand...

Oh, I'd get shot / snuffed for sure then....... Because I'd favor the 1992 version of Bowe and have to ace some other big name or names....

Dempsey is more favorable than Liston at # 11, but I feel Liston kills Jack in a wild affair.......

MR.BILL:admin:hat

MRBILL · Jun 21, 2010

I think "Ali, Johnson, Foreman, Tyson & Liston" have the most interesting stories and tales behind their greatness and fame, etc....
bbb

MR.BILL:hat

Mendoza · Jun 21, 2010

tommygun711 said: ↑

....
Vitali does not belong on that list. Neither does Norton.
Click to expand...

So you would pick some of those guys to beat Vitali? May I ask who?

I think Vitali belong in the top 20 for sure.

tommygun711 · Jun 21, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

So you would pick some of those guys to beat Vitali? May I ask who?

I think Vitali belong in the top 20 for sure.
Click to expand...

Yea, maybe, but not in the top 10.

MRBILL · Jun 21, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

So you would pick some of those guys to beat Vitali? May I ask who?

I think Vitali belong in the top 20 for sure.
Click to expand...

I sure as hell do. That's why I rated him.. I think V.K. is a bad-ass...

I'd like to do a fresh screenplay / feature of Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" and cast V.K. in the role as The Monster...... And I use the traditional 'Jack Pierce' make-up that was applied to Karloff in 1931, '35 & '39.... I'm goddamn serious.......
deal:shock:

MR.BILL

Boilermaker · Jun 21, 2010

MRBILL said: ↑

Folks, load your guns and aim, cuz here we go:

1. Ali - Not very brave but fair enough.
2. Holmes - Brave call, but old or not, he was beaten by Spinks twice (or at least once) sure he lost some speed but wouldnt he still be down in speed in his prime against other great light heavys like Tunney, Moore, Conn, Charles etc, Struggled with several big contenders like witherspoon, Williams,Berbick therefore does he not have the same big problems with big fighters who were in their prime like Baer, Willard, Carnera, Wills etc and scored a split decision over the classiest (but old) fighter he fought in NOrton, so wouldnt he also struggle with class greats like Walcott, Louis, Frazier, Holyfield etc, Was knocked cold and outclassed by Tyson when old but not totally shot. Could tyson not do it again. And what about other hitters like Dempsey and (dare i say it but if he was as good as his record not size says) Fitzsimmons.
3. Johnson - Good Solid pick, but ahead of Louis is a surprise.
4. Louis - This low, for the fighter who reigned without pier longer than anyone else. Very brave choice.
5. Lewis - Interesting and safe pick. But this is the best of the best. He scores well on size, but he never really faced the greats of his time in their prime. Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe could have really changed his legacy (for good or bad) if they fought earlier in his career, and can you really be as inconsistent as Lennox, in your prime and still rate top 10? If ordinary fighters like Rahman and McCall can turn a fight and KO Lewis with a big shot, wouldnt you think that several of Shavers, Foreman, Louis, Dempsey, Tyson, Lyle, Baer, Galento and many others would do the same (at least once) if they fought Lewis on a bad night. I dont think he is consistent enough to rate ahead of many others.
6. Foreman - Good pick. Hard to argue. He could be outboxed,and Tunney, Conn, even Lennox and/or Wlad and several others would hope to be his cryptonight but he did have some huge wins spanning champions/contnders from 5 decades (60s to present)
7. V.K. - This is above brave. Beaten by an old version of number 5, and ahead of a guy (holy) who did better against a better version of number 5. and virtually no other decent wins, despite dominating average fighters (which all time great didnt Dempsey, Fitzsimmons, Sullivan, Louis or anyone else?)
8. Holy - I dont rank him as highly, but it is a supportable pick as many do. Technically he did beat Tyson so he deserves the spot ahead of him in some minds, though if this is the case, shouldnt he then be placed behind Bowe?
9. Tyson - I am struggling to understand the main criteria you have used for this list as it does seem a bit random (sorry) but i will say that ranking Tyson somewhere near Marciano, Frazier and Holy is probably about right and by association, Bowe and Lennox isnt too far from these i guess as they were all similar level so it isnt too bad.
10. Marciano / Frazier / '92 Bowe (Take a pick) - Not very brave choice.
11. Liston / Dempsey (tie) Not sure why these two are inseparable for you, i suppose because they both cleaned the division before taking the title and had short reigns due to lack of interest. Interesting though that with 2 guys ranked the same, their conquerors both of whom empatically beat them are ranked no 1 and no 16. I would have thought that this alone means that either Tunney is underated or Ali is overated or Liston should have been ahead of dempsey on your list and reasoning.
12. W.K. - Brave again. It is hard to rate current fighters. Where does Wlad rate, if he is ko d tomorrow by light heavy Adamek? Or outboxed comprehensively by Povetkin? Conversely, if he never loses a fight or some of his victims dominate when he retires, things change. Despite his KOs, he does seem to be going through his challengers at a good rate. In fact, his wins for their time, really are starting to compare with Lennox's wins over contenders and even most of the other greats. I will make a big cal here and say Brave but fair.
13. Jimmy Jeff - Retired as undefeated champion and dominant champ, yet is quite a bit behind Marciano? He did everything Marciano did, except stay retired. He was considered far better than your no 2 Johnson when he retired though Johnson hadnt peaked and prime for prime it is a pickem fight. He should rate somewhere near both of these guys. 13 is too low.
14. Charles - Brave Call, but solid call.
15. Walcott - Fair, he should probably rate with Tunney
16. Tunney - Rates near the two above him, but realistically, unlike the above 2, no one was ever good enough to KO him or beat him at heavy. Probably should be higher than these two despite having fewer fights at heavy.
17. Timmy Spoon (ABC Champ) - I am sorry, but Spoon does not rate ahead of Michael Spinks, who should be somewhere near charles, walcott and Tunney. Spinks beat Holmes twice only 2 years after witherspoon did. And unlike witherspoon his firstround blowout was to a far better fighter in Tyson as opposed to Smith. Also, other great light heavys who won the lineal title or nearly did like Moore, Conn, Fitzsimmons, Burns, Braddock should be rating around the level of Walcott and Tunney.
18. Baer - Decent choice
19. Patterson - I am not really that sold on putting paterson ahead of norton or necessarilly even Johansen. And certainly not other faster boxer types like corbett, or Fitzsimmons who performed far better against the elite of their time.
20. Ken Norton (WBC Paper Champ '78) - I dont mind this selection but if he folded to Shavers, Cooney and Foreman so easily, wouldnt big hitters of which their have been many like Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sheppard, Bonecrusher Smith, Douglas, Tua, Galento, Buddy Baer, Fulton, Langford etc cause him the same problems? number 20 is very high, although i can see the argument.
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Swarmer · Jun 21, 2010

I can't take this **** seriously with the klits being on there

MRBILL · Jun 21, 2010

Boilermaker said: ↑

MRBILL said: ↑

Folks, load your guns and aim, cuz here we go:

1. Ali - Not very brave but fair enough.
2. Holmes - Brave call, but old or not, he was beaten by Spinks twice (or at least once) sure he lost some speed but wouldnt he still be down in speed in his prime against other great light heavys like Tunney, Moore, Conn, Charles etc, Struggled with several big contenders like witherspoon, Williams,Berbick therefore does he not have the same big problems with big fighters who were in their prime like Baer, Willard, Carnera, Wills etc and scored a split decision over the classiest (but old) fighter he fought in NOrton, so wouldnt he also struggle with class greats like Walcott, Louis, Frazier, Holyfield etc, Was knocked cold and outclassed by Tyson when old but not totally shot. Could tyson not do it again. And what about other hitters like Dempsey and (dare i say it but if he was as good as his record not size says) Fitzsimmons.
3. Johnson - Good Solid pick, but ahead of Louis is a surprise.
4. Louis - This low, for the fighter who reigned without pier longer than anyone else. Very brave choice.
5. Lewis - Interesting and safe pick. But this is the best of the best. He scores well on size, but he never really faced the greats of his time in their prime. Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe could have really changed his legacy (for good or bad) if they fought earlier in his career, and can you really be as inconsistent as Lennox, in your prime and still rate top 10? If ordinary fighters like Rahman and McCall can turn a fight and KO Lewis with a big shot, wouldnt you think that several of Shavers, Foreman, Louis, Dempsey, Tyson, Lyle, Baer, Galento and many others would do the same (at least once) if they fought Lewis on a bad night. I dont think he is consistent enough to rate ahead of many others.
6. Foreman - Good pick. Hard to argue. He could be outboxed,and Tunney, Conn, even Lennox and/or Wlad and several others would hope to be his cryptonight but he did have some huge wins spanning champions/contnders from 5 decades (60s to present)
7. V.K. - This is above brave. Beaten by an old version of number 5, and ahead of a guy (holy) who did better against a better version of number 5. and virtually no other decent wins, despite dominating average fighters (which all time great didnt Dempsey, Fitzsimmons, Sullivan, Louis or anyone else?)
8. Holy - I dont rank him as highly, but it is a supportable pick as many do. Technically he did beat Tyson so he deserves the spot ahead of him in some minds, though if this is the case, shouldnt he then be placed behind Bowe?
9. Tyson - I am struggling to understand the main criteria you have used for this list as it does seem a bit random (sorry) but i will say that ranking Tyson somewhere near Marciano, Frazier and Holy is probably about right and by association, Bowe and Lennox isnt too far from these i guess as they were all similar level so it isnt too bad.
10. Marciano / Frazier / '92 Bowe (Take a pick) - Not very brave choice.
11. Liston / Dempsey (tie) Not sure why these two are inseparable for you, i suppose because they both cleaned the division before taking the title and had short reigns due to lack of interest. Interesting though that with 2 guys ranked the same, their conquerors both of whom empatically beat them are ranked no 1 and no 16. I would have thought that this alone means that either Tunney is underated or Ali is overated or Liston should have been ahead of dempsey on your list and reasoning.
12. W.K. - Brave again. It is hard to rate current fighters. Where does Wlad rate, if he is ko d tomorrow by light heavy Adamek? Or outboxed comprehensively by Povetkin? Conversely, if he never loses a fight or some of his victims dominate when he retires, things change. Despite his KOs, he does seem to be going through his challengers at a good rate. In fact, his wins for their time, really are starting to compare with Lennox's wins over contenders and even most of the other greats. I will make a big cal here and say Brave but fair.
13. Jimmy Jeff - Retired as undefeated champion and dominant champ, yet is quite a bit behind Marciano? He did everything Marciano did, except stay retired. He was considered far better than your no 2 Johnson when he retired though Johnson hadnt peaked and prime for prime it is a pickem fight. He should rate somewhere near both of these guys. 13 is too low.
14. Charles - Brave Call, but solid call.
15. Walcott - Fair, he should probably rate with Tunney
16. Tunney - Rates near the two above him, but realistically, unlike the above 2, no one was ever good enough to KO him or beat him at heavy. Probably should be higher than these two despite having fewer fights at heavy.
17. Timmy Spoon (ABC Champ) - I am sorry, but Spoon does not rate ahead of Michael Spinks, who should be somewhere near charles, walcott and Tunney. Spinks beat Holmes twice only 2 years after witherspoon did. And unlike witherspoon his firstround blowout was to a far better fighter in Tyson as opposed to Smith. Also, other great light heavys who won the lineal title or nearly did like Moore, Conn, Fitzsimmons, Burns, Braddock should be rating around the level of Walcott and Tunney.
18. Baer - Decent choice
19. Patterson - I am not really that sold on putting paterson ahead of norton or necessarilly even Johansen. And certainly not other faster boxer types like corbett, or Fitzsimmons who performed far better against the elite of their time.
20. Ken Norton (WBC Paper Champ '78) - I dont mind this selection but if he folded to Shavers, Cooney and Foreman so easily, wouldnt big hitters of which their have been many like Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sheppard, Bonecrusher Smith, Douglas, Tua, Galento, Buddy Baer, Fulton, Langford etc cause him the same problems? number 20 is very high, although i can see the argument.
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Boiler,

That was a lucid, intelligent, well thought out summary of the entire lot of ex-champs here...

Spinks beat a soft and slow 35 year old Holmes in 1985. And, we ALL pretty much know Holmes was reamed in the rematch of '86....... Also, Holmes often gets dicked or short changed in the "Speed" department..... In his heyday, Holmes was very fast with his paws and spry on his legs..... And, again, to top that, Holmes' power was sometimes over-looked..... Holmes from '78 to 1982 was a lethal ring general.......

My new guy V.K. will get mixed emotions from the posters since he's still active..... 99% of the time an active fighter gets mixed emotions and reactions from the fans.... That's nothing new......

I also think Tim Spoon was a ballsy choice to make, but the guy really was good when he was right in mind and body..... He prolly was the best of the 80s "Paper" chumps.?.?

I had to add Floyd Patterson in the top-20 or I'd be shot on sight by the "Patty" fanatics......... BUT! I agree that Norton whips his ass in a fight....

MR.BILL:hat

Note:

I love Ol' Jeff and his tales, but them official 20 or so pro fights bother me....... You'd think he'd be closer to 50 pro fights with the way old farts brag about what Jeff could do......
Click to expand...

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My best pick of Top-20 "Heavy" champs from 1887-2011. WORD!

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