My Dad's Top 10 Heavyweights

Enough already about this crap with Dempsey & Black fighters.Dempsey employed numerouse black sparring partners and would have fought anyone put in front of him.It was the promoters and commissioners of that era that kept those fights from happening.Dempsey was a fighter period.Im so sick of this Harry Wills god like status on this forum.According to adleast one respected oppinion none other than the legendary Ray Arcel who stated many times that Wills was just a big plodder who Dempsey would have destroyed.

 

If Wills was just a plodder...then Firpo, Fulton, and Willard must have sucked big time.

I mean it's not crap. These were genuine hall of fame greats that Dempsey failed to challenge. Just imagine if Rocky Marciano decided to draw the color line. Imagine if he never fought Joe Louis, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott...would you rate him just as highly? Highly Doubt it.

Really? Because I seem to remember reading an article that clearly stated Joe Jeanette was put in front of him, and he refused to fight him. Jeanette was an old man too. Dempsey also admitted to have turning down a fight in 1917 with Sam Langford because he "wasn't ready". I think this contradicts your statement about him fighting "Anyone put in front of him."

Perhaps...but bottom line is he failed to fight the two outstanding heavyweight contenders in his era(Harry Wills and Harry Greb). In fact, Dempsey is probably the only heavyweight champion who took on LOSERS of Title Eliminators.

And I am getting sick of this Dempsey # 1 all time crap, when he failed to prove he was # 1 of his own era!! Let alone of all time.

 

McGrain,a few points-
1-Dempsey because of La Dolca Vita, did not fight for three years.His fault
2-Tommy gibbons was at that time a great defensive fighter,that Dempsey Decisioned winning about 12-13 rounds..No shame there.After all
Bob Pastor went the distance with Joe Louis,as did Natie Brown and Arturo Godoy...You cannot ko everyone...
3-Agreed Joe Louis had a more impressive career than Jack Dempsey, but
be aware, the great Joe Louis wished not to tackle such fighters in his
prime as Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Lee Q Murray etc..The only black fighter he fought at his peak was a blind LH John Henry Lewis in 1939,as a favor to his friend JHL, in John Henry's last fight..I lived next door to
the trainer of John Henry Lewis about that time...
Aside-All the great black punchers I mention above were superior to many of Joe Loui's opponents, but for whatever reason Louis's brain trust,
avoided those bouts...
4-As i have posted often, we have never seen the prime Dempsey on film.Aside from Willard... To say that all the big men Dempsey ,flattened in his pre filmed days were bums,ala Fred Fulton, Carl Morris,Gunboat Smith,
Jess Willard etc,and were so inferior to AbeSimon, Carnera, Buddy Baer,
is a leap forward...Not according to the writers who saw these men and
Joe Louis's big victims...Fred Fulton was a 6ft4'puncher who kod a much
smaller Sam Langford, was destroyed by Jack Dempsey in less than a minute in 1918...Absolutely knocked cold..I cannot believe that an Abe Simon would last 13 rounds, or Primo Carnera last 6 rounds against the
young Manassa Mauler of those days....
5- To sum up, I who have never seen the young Jack Dempsey on film
take the opinions of the great majority of boxing historians of that time
and Louis's era also,who EXTOLLED the abilities of Jack Dempsey of his prime...Why would I not have faith in what they have seen and wrote for posterity?...Growing up as a boy I would talk to older boxing men who saw Jack Dempsey and raved about his prowess in his peak...He was a meteor
in his prime, and would be a handfull for any heavyweight after, and along
with my favorite heavyweight Joe Louis, the two top punchers of all time.
Who would win their bout if they ever collided ?I don't know, but fans
take your digitalis with you...

 

Im quoting Ray Arcel on the first one.
Dont know anything about Dempsey turning down J.J. I never once read anything about that.
As far as Langford that was a green Dempsey knowing he'd be in over his head.Nothing to do with color.
Dempsey wanted Greb,Kearns didnt.
As far as Dempsey drawing a color line I think thats BS.More like Promoters and Commissioners drawing it.
I dont think Dempsey is the greatest either but I think hes top 6 or 7.

 

ru,Dont knock yourself out trying to reason with posters who believe what they WANT to believe, and not with a Ray Arcel,and other veterans
who saw Dempsey and Wills etc...They know better about these men ninety years later, because they have made up their mind already...
For example Harry Wills was flattened by Paolino Uzcudun, and later on Joe Louis annihilated Uzcudun with a right hand that knocked out Paolino's front teeth...
If dempsey would have had trouble in his prime it would be with a great wily Jack Johnson, not a large slow target as Harry Wills..Ray Arcel was a great boxing brain whose opinion i would take to the bank...He saw them all, and knew everything about those long ago days....

 

Yes I dont understand why alot of poster's dont take into account what some of these great boxing writers who were around from Dempsey's time up to say the 1960's say about Dempsey.
On another note I feel that Louis gets too much credit when compared head to head with all time greats. If a small mover like Conn and a slick Jersey Joe could outbox Conn then what would a big prime Clay and Holmes do to him not to mention Tunney.

 

This is always is, isn't it?

He "WOULD'VE...." this and "WOULD'VE that". Asif Wills was just another slow plodding heavyweight. If they were that confident, why didn't they fight him then? Why keep him on a leash and promise a title shot if he won an eliminator, only not to keep that promise? And please don't bring up that it wasn't possible to make that fight. Public polls showed that Wills was the most wanted fight and leads by 3 times more votes than the 2nd option, Greb. Everyone wanted to see it, read, there was huge money available.

Speaking of Greb, why did that fight never come through? Why did Dempsey fight the guys that Greb beat (the losers) for title eliminators? No color line to hide behind here, but no matter, the fight still never came off, guess why.

 

Im done talking about Wills already.
As for Greb I read Dempsey was more than willing but Kearns balked.

 

Exactly.

People these days also forget how impossible it was for a black man to get a title fight before Louis himself(hell even after). It isn't Dempsey or Louis's fault they couldn't fight black contenders.

It was Johnson's

 

a) If knocking out 25 men in the first round --Dempsey's still standing record-- were nothing, it would have been eclipsed after 90 years I say.

b) It is simply false to say a giant like world heavyweight champion Willard was a horrible, horrible boxer. He was doing the right things as title holder --including jabbing and smothering-- against his much smaller challenger, before Dempsey's explosion. One left hook --one!-- was enough to floor the 245lb champion, who enjoyed a 58-pound weight advantage, and never again in the bout saw the makings of a chance.

c) Everyone agrees Dempsey's record, particularly as champion, is not all that impressive, ON PAPER, though he can boast of highlights such as his 25 first-round knockouts. ON PAPER, any great's numbers can look average. What's Muhammad Ali --the supposed Greatest's-- record? 56 wins, 5 losses. Not exactly arresting. Besides, Dempsey's "legacy" was at heart the Mauler himself in the ring: the way he disposed of his enemies; the levels to which he revolutionized the sport with sheer savagery and technique. Not for nothing was Mike Tyson himself bananas for Dempsey. In the footsteps of his idol, Mike himself left a similar legacy: perhaps lacking in numbers, but, at his peak, what a fighter he was!

d) You continue to disdain generations of boxing experts while elevating your own personal impressions above them. To say these experts --people who lived boxing for untold total lifetimes-- "didn't do their homework" or "ignored their own time" speaks for itself as a foolhardy perspective.

e) Sam Langford, that White Hope advocate, calmly stated he'd put his money on Dempsey over Wills.

f) Dempsey was a penniless, hungry hobo and day laborer who tied himself under freight trains traveling the country in search of a better fortune. Once he became world champion, he moved on to Easy Street. Fine by me. But in the process, he became the greatest fighter --understand, not merely heavyweight-- many claimed they would ever see.

 

Very well said!!!

 

prime ,Welcome aboard...Finally some sanity prevails! These posters have a visceral hatred for Dempsey that still puzzles me...And what great vwriters of Dempsey's time say about him has no meaning to them.
Even sam Langfords comment about Dempsey vs Wills fight which fell through is totally disregarded, because it does not fit their agenda...
I find it sad to ignore what regard great trainers and fighters held for Dempsey is meaningless to them almost a century later...He, Dempsey
did not fight as often as he could have, but at his best I take the
opinions of those that SAW him and regard him as a great fighter,
and a threat to any heavyweight who ever lived...Thank you prime!!

 

Dempsey was a fighting machine lean hungry and mean to go with his power and skills we need another one if you ask me.