My explanation of Tyson's loss to Douglas,for Russell or anyone else who's interested

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mr. magoo, Oct 24, 2008.


  1. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    It's a lengthy post and one that I copied from another thread that I posted on, but here it is...

    In response to Russell's quote

    To answer your question Russell, he wasn't..

    Tyson in 1990, was not necessarily a past-prime shell so much as he was damaged goods.

    What I'm about to tell you, is all from memory and going way back into my youth, but here goes.

    Upon taking complete control of Tyson's career, DK fired everyone who had essentially worked with Tyson from the time he was a teenager, including his trainer, cornerman, and manager. Bill Cayton, Kevin Rooney and everyone else was either terminated or had died by that point. Hired in their stead, were three obscure personalities named Rory Holloway, Aran Snowel, and Jay Bright.

    Holloway was essentially hired to manage Tyson's affairs - a position formerly held by Bill Cayton and Jim Jacobs ( who was deceased ). Aron Snowel was a former cornerman for heavyweight champ Tim Witherspoon, as well as Former Jr Welter champ Aron Prior. Jay Bright, was a trainer who had apparently crossed paths with Cus D'amato at some point in the past, and who's great claim to fame was a single sparring session with Muhammad Ali sometime back in the 60's.

    These were the men who worked with Tyson for some 18 months following the disolving of the original team Tyson. In the meantime, Mike had gone through several episodes of exercising erratic behavior. He had since been divorced by Robin Givens, and during the whole process, had made death threats to her and her mother. He had been involved in a car accident ( alledgedly called a suicide attempt ) where he was injured-post poning the Frank Bruno fight, which had an original date of October 10, 1988. He had been in a fist fight with ex-opponent mitch green which left Green's face a bloody mess, and Tyson's hand temporarily injured. He performed in subpar fashion against Frank Bruno. He would lose yet another family member, as his sister Denise Tyson would die tragically in her late 20's.

    With his list of blood relatives dwindling, his former team dispatched, his life going to peices, and working with incompetant management for over a year,Tyson entered the ring against James Douglas on February 12th 1990. There were rumors of Tyson spending weeks prior to the fight staying out late and rendezvouing with the local escort services. Additionally, he was apparently struggling during training sessions, and at one point was dropped by Greg page in a sparring session.

    During the fight with Monsier Buster, Tyson was rarely making an effort to close the sizable gap against the much taller Douglas, whereas against other tall opponents with reasonable jabs, such as Tucker, holmes, Tubbs, and Biggs, Tyson had slipped the jab and followed up with a barage of combinations coming in. We saw little or nothing of this against Douglas. Following the match, boxing legends, Gil Clancy and Angelo Dundee were interviewed on HBO. Both agreed that the corner work in that fight was some of the most unproffesional that either man had seen in quite some time. Snowel was using a disolved bag of water to try and reduce Tyson's swelling over his eyes, while calmly giving him ambiguous advice with no real instruction " Mike your not closing the gap." All the while, Tyson sat with his head down during every intermission between rounds. There was clearly no interest here...


    Upon losing to Douglas, King needed to try and salvage his prized race hoarse. He fired some of the personnel that he had originally hired to replace Rooney, and brought aboard long time trainer of Larry Holmes, Rich Giachetti. Did Tyson regain the abilities that he once had upon making these changes? That is subject to question. We can say for certain however that his last performances prior to going to prison against Alex Stewart and Razor Ruddock were certainly a greater reflection of the man who stopped Spinks, than was the horrible display in the Douglas match......

    CONCLUSION: Was Mike Tyson washed up in 1990? My answer is no. He was 23 years of age, in perfect health and coming off of one of the best heavyweight runs of all time. Was he the same fighter who had thoroughly flattened the division between 1986-1989. My answer is again, no. He was by this point, the product of an unstable life outside of the ring, as well as a cash cow who was poorly managed. Ad on his immaturity and lack of guidance, and frankly, I think any decent challenger in the 1990 top 10 would have had a good chance of doing to him what Douglas did. Was the Douglas loss a mark of Tyson's end? Once again, my answer is no. Upon rebuilding his team, we saw Tyson recover to some degree in the Stewart and Ruddock fights. Going to prison was far more detrimental to his career than a single loss to James Douglas.

    If you have read this post, then I thank you for taking the time to do so, as I have spent much of the morning at work putting it together. The reason I took the time, was because for two years now, I have surfed chat forums, and there seem to be few who remember the REAL story, the WHOLE story or who simply chose to fabricate their OWN story. While James Douglas deserves credit for his efforts and Tyson deserves criticism for his, the outcome of their match ages ago, should limited to just the individual critique of the two of them in this match alone...Nothing else...... To try and use this match as a beacon for fantasy fights across eras, does neither of these men any service and nor does it reflect what type of fighters they truly were. Tyson vs Douglas was nothing more than an obscure case where one man fought the absolute best fight of his career, while the other fought the absolute worst. It does not reflect that James Douglas would have competed admirably against all time greats nor that Tyson would have necessarily lost to them when at his absolute best....
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  2. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Many thanks. It captures the essence of the Tyson story.

    I have a couple of observations...

    Tyson's erratic behaviour was, IMO, always there. Cus covered up for him. Didn't he also get treated for the clap prior to the Berbick fight? I have always believed that the demons that plagued him were also what made him. He was so great because of his up bringing and he would also eventually fall foul to the same set of issues.

    Too many people try to draw a line. Timing is everything in boxing. When you fight someone at a given point in your career and their career. Some fighters age better than others. BUT you can't really call a guy in their 20s past their prime.

    There's a story behind everyone's defeats.

    Douglas's mother died prior to the fight. Buster used this to motivate himself whilst Tyson was unable to do the same.
     
  3. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Thanks for taking time to read it..

    Tyson's " bad intentions ", were definately a part of who he was as a person, as well as playing a major in his success as a fighter.. I agree... These demons that you refer to however, are like flames. They can either be used to protect you, or they can consume you. I believe they did both to Tyson.

    No you can't. This was one of things that I touched upon rather extensively in my explanation. Tyson was in the prime of life at age 23, and with a record of 37-0. But, he was damaged goods nonetheless.


    I remember it well. Douglas was also a single parent raising a son, and had lost his wife earlier. Much like Spinks.
     
  4. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I've always considered one of the most important parts of rating a fighter is how he responds to defeat and adversity. It may be unfashionable today but dropping a decision in a 4 or 6 rounder early on in a career can do a lot to help a fighter's mental strength.

    Tyson may well have had his eye off the ball in previous fights but he was blwoing everyone away. I remember a tongue-in-cheek headline in a boxing mag after he beat Tubbs by KO in round 2 (after Tubbs had the better of round 1): Tyson wins come from behind KO.
     
  5. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Agreed,

    Although I didn't concur with the Newspaper nor any of the boxing publications that the Tubbs match was a " come from behind KO ". Dropping a single round on the scorecards, does not necessarily define coming back from the jaws of defeat.. I for one, require a better example such as JCC coming back to beat Taylor, albeit in controversial fashion of course.
     
  6. Ezzard

    Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    yes, like I said it was tongue-in-cheek... It showed just how dominant he was at the time. His fights had become like public executions. Pretending that the result was ever in doubt showed just how unthinkable it had become that he could ever lose.
     
  7. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Again I agree.

    We the public had been fooled into believing that this young man from New York, was beyond human. We now know that he wasn't......Additionally, we were blind to what was going on between 1988-1990, that led to his eventual demise.
     
  8. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Very nice read. I actually think Tyson looked better against Holyfield than against Douglas. His workrate was almost twice as large against the bald warrior than against Douglas (something like 23 punches a round there).

    It's interesting because Tyson seemed much less focused against Douglas, but he did keep on trying until the very end, whereas against Holyfield, he looked sharper early on, but faded faster after the 8th.
     
  9. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Agreed,

    The Douglas performance was the most uncharacteristic ever sported by Tyson, which is why I never use it in fantasy matchups against other greats. If he had several performances such as this one during his peak years, then we could at least establish a pattern, but this was clearly not the man at his best..
     
  10. Arka

    Arka New Member Full Member

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    "The greatest puncher since Joe Louis."-Eddie Futch
    "..the closest thing we have to Jack Dempsey in his prime."-Ray Arcel

    Whether he was great or not,at his best he was something...
     
  11. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Don't feed trolls......Place him on your ignore list.