My granddad believes Charles could have defeated Liston

Ezzard Charles was my grandfathers favorite boxer and says he was the best boxer he ever watched.

 

I didn't imply that Liston would lose. I implied that he could lose. We know that anything can happen in any boxing match, just about. Regarding Sonny's prime, that's a mystery because no one knows for sure how old he was. Was he pre-prime when Machen easily went the distance? Prime, past prime? Who knows. And yes, Ezzard had a lot of losses, but fighters fought a lot more back then, usually. Who ever thought that Young would give Ali and Foreman boxing lessons? Who ever thought that Conn would shock the world for 13 rounds against Louis? Styles, my friend, and intangibles. No one is invincible.

 

It is certainly possible. You will get no argument here.

I just don't think it would be probable.

 

Now there are versions of Charles that will lose to Liston. The Charles who lost to John Holman Liston will beat. Liston beats every prewar pre war middleweight version of Charles and perhaps the Charles who lost to Elmer Ray in 1946.

But there are also versions of Liston that Charles will beat. How hard to beat was the Liston that Ali fought in Maine? Or the Liston who Leotis Martin beat? Or the not yet quite there Sonny we see on film against Bert Whitehurst and Willie Besmanoff.

The Version of Ezzard who was hardest to beat was Charles from the Sensational knocking out of Archie Moore in 1947 all the way to the Rocky fight in 1954 a period he went 32-5 against mostly world rated men. Only Walcott and Rocky beat him decisively in this period. Rocky being the only one to beat him 2 out of 2. everyone before this Charles rematched he beat! Layne he beat loads of times. When Nino Valdez would not rematch him Charles went after every guy who had beat Nino and beat them. Same with Harold Johnson. Ezz already beat the guy who had knocked Johnson spark out and the Johnson fight was a hometown SD that could have went either way. In short, Charles was a beast. Guys like Ray Arcel could not speak highly enough of him.

In a much smaller window Liston was very good and hardest to beat only really from 1959-1965 where he went 13-2 from the Dejohn to Ali. Either side of these years he really did not face worth while foes. And among the 13 he did in this period only 3 could be described as elite level wins. Much of his streak was cannon fodder everyone else was beating.

I honestly don't think we have seen enough of Charles best wins. And if we had more of his body of work to view I don't think Liston would be getting anything more than a punchers chance against the prime Charles.

 

There's been way too many bigger upsets for me to downplay anyone who picks Ezzard. It's a winnable fight for him.

 

I think if you put a title belt around Liston's waist, Ezzard wins.

Mentality matters. Liston was the type of fighter that did his best work and was his most dedicated getting to the top. He wasn't the type to last long once he got there.

 

I cant remember which boxer said it but its true...Not many fighters get better after winning the belt, but the great ones do ! So true imo

 

In his prime as Hvywt champion, Charles 71-5-1, going into the 3rd JJW title fight.

 

Wait - he went after every guy who had beat Nino and beat them? What, like Bob Baker, Archie Moore and Harold Johnson? Because no he didn't.

 

Billy Gilliam, Archie Moore, bob satterfeild all handedly beat Nino Valdes and lost badly to Charles.

Satterfeild schooled Nino and decked him. Where as Charles knocked Satterfeild as flat as a pancake.

Archie beat the pants off Nino twice and Charles beat Moore 4 times, the last time he poleaxed a prime Moore.

Most people on this forum scored for Charles against Harold Johnson who also beat Valdez.

Charles made a blunder against Nino putting on too much weight, he most likely would have destroyed Nino in a rematch but Valdez would not give him one.

 

Charles fought Gilliam and Moore before his loss to Valdes. Satterfield didn't beat Valdes until after his loss to Charles.

So to cut a long story short, it's not true that "When Nino Valdez would not rematch him Charles went after every guy who had beat Nino and beat them."

 

Excellent points.

 

The point is, among common opponents, Charles beat everyone who beat Nino.

Charles was fighting 8 times a year at that point against top liners. Dropping a close fight with that schedule is no big deal. I am convinced if Charles wasn't on the road fighting in so many different states like Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Ohio, California, Illinois,and he went into a championship style training camp he would have no problem with Nino.

In fact, Billy Gilliam fought Nino and Charles over a four week period. He also beat Nino and lost to Charles.

The close loss to Nino was a blip for Charles during a busy schedule on the road. It's almost insignificant. The 3 times avenged loss to Layne was in his hometown with poor scoring. The Johnson split decision loss was in his hometown too. As I said, only Walcott and Rocky really beat Charles. Ezzard really was one of the most prolific winners against top men.

 

I think the biggest difference between the two is that Liston generally does better in fantasy fights than he did in reality and with Charles it is the opposite.

 

Is it? Because I'm pretty sure the point used to be that "When Nino Valdez would not rematch him Charles went after every guy who had beat Nino and beat them." Still, why split hairs?

Valdes did lose to some fighters who lost to Charles - and to some others who didn't lose to Charles. That's because Valdes was just not that good and his brief spell as a top contender depended heavily on this unexpected victory. That's why it's impossible to spin it as anything but a blot on Charles' record.

The fight wasn't particularly close - it was an uncontroversial unanimous decision with Charles winning no more than 3 rounds on any card. It's also a weak excuse that Charles was exhausted from "fighting 8 times a year against top liners". It was actually 2 and a half months since his last fight - an undemanding win over journeyman light heavyweight Larry Watson.