My greatest heavyweight champs list

BOLD: And have I.

LINED: Exactly

 

Space for Leon Spinks but not Ken Norton? :rofl

 

I think that he has rated across their entire careers also.

But, why single out Johnson and Dempsey when both of their reigns were clearly a lot better than Liston at No. 6, Who has just one successful defence against a fighter that he had just knocked out in 1 round.

I dont think the list is anywhere near as bad as the inevitable whinging will suggest, although i have no doubt in time that guys like Sullivan and Jeffries in particular will improve, if the poster is serious about developing a list. Actually, Primo Carnera also has a lot of improvement left in him, too.

Rocky Marciano is a legitimate choice as number 1. I struggle to rate Dempsey 2 but he has a lot of supporters and it is not totally unbelievable. Johnson at 3 or higher is solid, some might even say correct.

While most rate Louis and Ali higher, it is possible to rate the first three above them, depending on your criteria. One thing is for sure, at this stage it doesnt seem that the poster has much of a emphasis on longevity.

 

It's another blow for the Marciano fans, rather than fanatics. I recognize Marciano can't and shouldn't be ranked in the top 2. Just like a recognize that he would probably lose to Ali, Foreman, and even ... dare I say Vitali Klitschko(Always hurts to say).

If I were you, I'd edit this topic to a "Top" Heavyweight list to a favorite heavyweight list in order to preserve your credibility.

People can be harsh (As I guess I was), but it's not that bad of a list considering your new here. Welcome, and I'm sure you will learn tons if you stay.

By the way... as for lists you'll see our best posters make some interesting lists based upon fantasy greatness rather than proven greatness within their time. If you stay, you'll have a reaction to some of this as well. Arguing with them won't be very successful. Their knowledge is top. Criteria... possibly faulty.

 

I actually don't consider Marciano at No. 1 legitimate at all. I think to even contemplate making that argument you would have to be insane.

 

So as far as you're concerned Rocky Marciano is the greatest H2H fighter of all time at HW? Are you an adult crack-baby? What the ****? Seriously? Is this a joke? Where'd be box of wine go...

 

Larry Holmes wasn't undisputed.

Marciano #1 H2H? As a fan, I'm insulted for the other Marciano fans. That is all.

 

:good:goodcouldn't agree more.

 

How about getting blown out by a 37 year old light heavyweight in one round? It happened to your #2, but that doesn't seem to be a BIG BIG blot for you.

 

I have done a bit of reading. It was never proven. The evidence basically consists of two parts:

1. Articles that were written literally several years after the fight, based on eye witness accounts that all contradicted each other.
2. "Hey, this is Jack Dempsey, do you really think he could lose to a washed up Flynn? He knocked him out in the rematch! It has to be a fake".

The first argument is silly, because these kind of articles only started surfacing after Dempsey became a star. The eye-witness accounts are completely unreliable. Remember that this was before high quality tv. There were no slow-motion replays of knockdowns or knockouts. Zip, and it happened. The fight was over in a minute and not of great magnitude. Hell, even after having seen dozens of slow motion replays, i still tend to mix up which punch caused a knockout after not having seen said fight for more than a year, even though i'm convinced i still know.

The second is even more silly. There are no guarantees in boxing. If there was no film on Mike Tyson, would believe he lost to Douglas?


Now, look at the primary reports of the fight, the REAL ONES, not the biased ones that had been fabricated years later only to serve one angle of interest. You will see that the primary reports don't state a word about a possible fix. And you have to remember that this is in a time when FIX!! was yelled really fast, even in some legit fights.

 

Heavyweights I rate higher H2H than Rocky Marciano

Muhammad Ali - Head to head No. 1 based on chin, toughness, speed, athleticism, unconventional style and basically everything barring actual punching power (though despite his lack of real power he could never be counted out of scoring a stoppage)

Joe Louis - Based on him being the greatest puncher in the history of the HW division, maybe in all of boxing. Basically a perfect boxer/puncher.

Jack Dempsey - Hard hitting, fast, tough, good defense, high work-rate, excellent skill (especially inside). Had everything except size.

Larry Holmes - That jab, excellent speed, ring generalship and intelligence, footwork, chin, good pop.

Joe Frazier - his work-rate, toughness, determination, inside fighting skills, and left-hook. The best pure pressure fighter of all time at heavy-weight. A non-stop bomb throwing come forward machine without any quit in him.

Mike Tyson - One of the fastest HW's of all time. One of the most powerful HW's of all time and one of the most skilled HW's of all time. An absolute monster in his prime.

Sonny Liston - Strength, power, excellent technical skills, chin and a tremendous arsenal of punches.

George Foreman - A physical juggernaut. One of the strongest and hardest hitting HW's of all time.

Lennox Lewis - The best of the super-heavy's. Excellent power, highly skilled. Smart, good defense and usually a very solid chin.

Marciano was very good, but I just don't rate him highly H2H. I'd pick all of the above fighters to beat him, along with Gene Tunney, Sam Langford and Vitali Klitschko.

It was never proven to be anything other than a legitimate outcome. There may be a few question marks surrounding the fight, but it seems to me more likely that it was not a fix.

 

I am also big on Marciano and that era, Joe Louis is my number 1 but I rate Marciano and Walcott high. Ali I rate high but Holmes is far too overrated on this forum. Remember everyone has an opinion and it is good to listen to reason but if you feel strong about a fighter, do not be intimidated by someone's opinion because they are no more qualified than you. This is speculation.

Ali is made out to be a God and he was one of the great but he did have his trouble with the smaller fighters and could handle the slow,ponderous guys(Quarry also had this talent but was troubled with speed)

Holmes had a good run but never unified, avoided ALL tough rematches and avoided Many of the top fighters of his day, so points have to be taken away or this. Liston quit 2 times and was beaten by a 180lb fighter and later KO'd by another sub 200 fighter.

Keep you opinions and have an open mind but if you feel strong about something, stick to your guns. When it comes to era exchange, don't let anyone compare weight or size changes. An example would be taking Tyson into the 40' or Louis into the 90's , Men are heavier but only in the Heavyweight division, one of the reasons is the difference of added or subtraction muscle. Another would be the 12-15 rd limit. I think If you brought Tyson to the 40's, the muscle enhancers would not be available and if you brought Louis to the 90's they would be available to him also.

There are no time machines with matching era's so you would have to add on weight to a 40's fighter fighting in the 90's or take away weight from a 90's fighter fighting in the 40's. Again the only division this is a factor is the Heavyweights because they have no weight limit and there have been a lot of overweight heavyweights since the 80's. But that is just my opinion.

Good Luck and Enjoy ESB...most of the posters are reasonable and fair but there are some that think they are better suited to give an opinion but that is hogwash.