My latest ATG Heavyweight top 20

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bummy Davis, Jun 15, 2011.


Page 3 of 3
  1. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,667
    2,153
    Aug 26, 2004
    I have been around boxing for many years and have always known the inside people from family connections and all of the better minds were big on Walcott. I remember Flash Gordon who loved him and a lot of old time guys as well. I think he upsets a lot of greats on a good night and gives a rough night to the rest. It took over a hundred years for a few great fighters to emerge. Some of the youngsters have a good opinion but so many just go by size and muscle which is not always a factor. Guys like Dempsey,Marciano,Louis, and Walcott had plenty of muscle and power where it was needed and other than David Haye you dont find that power below 200lbs today. Today guys like I mentioned above would be born bigger and grow bigger because of the way they process foods and because each generation is bigger than the next but Great is great and we should not forget how hard it was to win a title with no -co champions and fight the best guys out there.
     
    Bummy Davis, Jun 17, 2011
    Bummy Davis, Jun 17, 2011
    #31
  2. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    21,116
    110
    Oct 9, 2008

    It's kool, Bum.... WORD!!

    Again, I get shot at all week long with my # 3 Johnson and # 7 V.K. rankings...... But I ain't backing down.... No, sir....

    Still, you are very kind and partial to "Marciano, Dempsey and Wally" for sure....


    MR.BILL:bbb:deal:hat
     
    MRBILL, Jun 17, 2011
    MRBILL, Jun 17, 2011
    #32
  3. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,667
    2,153
    Aug 26, 2004
     
    Bummy Davis, Jun 17, 2011
    Bummy Davis, Jun 17, 2011
    #33
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    81,365
    21,808
    Sep 15, 2009
    I don't rank on h2h because it's impossible to prove. I go off legacy and resume. Wlad could be argued higher than 15, maybe as high as 12. In all likelihood he'll carry on a lot longer and be established much higher. Since the retirement of lewis wlad has beaten everyone he's fought and established himself as the next great heavyweight.

    Vitali should have been the man, but aside from a 1 year period he never was. He's been an interlude and second fiddle to lewis or wlad for almost his entire career. His resume isn't as good as langford's but it's on par with someone like wills imo.
     
    lufcrazy, Jun 18, 2011
    lufcrazy, Jun 18, 2011
    #34
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,065
    Mar 21, 2007


    Well let's have quick look ten top guys each man holds wins over.

    Jersey Joe Walcott..............Joe Frazier
    Max Schmeling....................Sonny Liston
    Billy Conn...........................George Foreman
    Max Baer...........................Floyd Patterson
    Primo Carnera.....................Ken Norton
    Jack Sharkey......................Jerry Quarry
    Jim Braddock......................Jimmy Ellis
    Tommy Farr........................Leon Spinks
    Arturo Godoy.......................Earnie Shavers
    Jimmy Bivins.......................Jimmy Young


    Obviously, we could substitute given fighters for others. The thing to note is that there isn't that much difference but that Ali's list is much more top heavy. Frazier, Liston, Foreman, patterson and Norton are probably better than anyone Louis beat with the possible exception of Walcott. Resume, to me, is quite clearly to Ali. I can't see how someone could look at both men's best wins and say that Ali is ahead.

    To be clear, you think that Louis looks clearly the better of the two on film? To the degree where any advantage in resume can be clearly overhauled?

    They also had the style to lose to Ali.

    Ali, meanwhile, has the style to beat Louis.



    Disagree with this. Frazier beat Ali with speed of pressure.

    Additionally, Marciano at no stage of his career proved that he could absorb a beating like the one Frazier shipped to Ali not once but twice.

    He also at no time proved that he could absorb puches, over and again, as enormous as the ones Foreman landed without KOing him. At the very least, Marciano's recuperative powers are not as proven as Frazier's, nor is his durability.

    However, you could be write. Given your heavy lean upon h2h, and your picking Marciano to beat Ali, why is Ali ahead of Marciano?



    Louis is far from flawless too. Arguing about which one is "more flawed" is splitting hairs to the maximum.

    You can, of course, undermine Ali's wins over Foreman, Liston and Frazier but you can also undermine Louis's wins over Walcott (I) and Godoy. The only difference is, they are regarded (by all but you) as nothing like so great as the men Louis beat.



    I guess you are ranking fighters based partly upon stuff like visceral impact ("explosiveness...sheer aggression"), wider social impact and legendary status ("AMerican tough guy that emergered from a tough hard era"). That's fair enough in my view, but not really criteria that interest me so I think i'll leave you to it chum.
     
    McGrain, Jun 18, 2011
    McGrain, Jun 18, 2011
    #35
  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,578
    Nov 24, 2005
    It's definitely a subjective area.
    Because when you say " ..... patterson and Norton are probably better than anyone Louis beat with the possible exception of Walcott" ..... my first thoughts are, no, I would consider Conn, Baer and Schmeling on a par with Patterson and Norton as fighters, and personally I don't think Walcott was definitely the best Louis fought.
     
    Unforgiven, Jun 18, 2011
    Unforgiven, Jun 18, 2011
    #36
  7. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,667
    2,153
    Aug 26, 2004




    I see you are a big Ali fan and I am also but It all depends on what impresses you in a fighter for me Joe Louis was the best. Ali may have the style to trouble Louis but Louis also had one of the best left hooks ever and a few versions of it and Ali was very vulnerable to that punch. Its really hard to be sure you pick a who win win in a battle of the ATG,s Its a matter of opinion so I will not waste too much time on that just that I feel Louis would hurt Ali with that punch and Joe would be the best 2-fisted combo-puncher and finisher that Ali ever faced and Ali would also be the fastest hand/feet for Joe. I like Joe in this match-up.

    As far as Marciano he used to be my number 2 and I do feel as Ali stated that Marciano was a better version of Frazier and would have been his hardest fight. However I will take a lot of factors into consideration, such as depth of resume,style,strengths vs weaknesses and the ability to defeat a wider range of fighters.

    Marciano had a great resume and his career was fought in his prime but Ali was at it longer and had his great wins against Liston, Foreman and Frazier and I moved him up and took Marciano down a notch. I am big on Marciano and that is no secret and I feel my top 3 should always stay that way unless someone else comes along and retires with greater acomplishments.

    As far as Dempsey, leading up to the title, the way he won it vs Willard and defended it against Firpo, etc. and even a past best rusty Dempsey KO'd Sharkey and long-counted Tunney showed you a ferociousness and speed that was not seen again until Tyson but Dempsey unlike Tyson rose from the floor to win. Out of all the Champions from Sullivan to Dempsey, JD stands out for me and I do not believe anyone stood out after him until Louis. The reason I said American tough guy was to put in perspective the ERA and the hard times that Dempsey had to endure in coal mine fights hungry riding trains from the undercarriage and became a tremendous star because they was no one like him before.

    We learn from others mistakes and if from what we learned if we could go back, it would have been wiser for Dempsey to be more active and to have Wills because I feel that is a fight he would have won. Johnson also only fought one black fighter once Champion and many of the Champions were not active back then and there were more avoidance's later with Champions but Dempsey is magnified because of his greater status and color.

    For me Dempsey had great ability of speed,power and aggressiveness and he would be dangerous for fighters even today. I also feel he would have been a danger to Ali, Louis,Marciano,Lewis, ETC.

    As far as the comparison of resume of Ali and Louis I do not think either man would have trouble of a possible loss with the other lists with the exception of Walcott and Frazier, I think they would and did trouble both men. Ali may have had an easier time vs fighters like Godoy, Galento ,Farr and maybe not but Louis may make quick work out of fighters like Cooper, Jones, Norton,Mildenburger, and Patterson. I also think Louis would take Foreman out quick and Frazier in a clean KO after a tough fight but that is all opinion and what impresses an individual.

    You made some good points but I don't think I will change your opinion or you mine. Its all a mater of opinion, Chum[/quote]
     
    Bummy Davis, Jun 18, 2011
    Bummy Davis, Jun 18, 2011
    #37
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,065
    Mar 21, 2007
    No. I'm not, at all. My favourite HW's are Louis, Frazier and Liston. I have very mixed feelings on Ali and wouldn't describe myself as a fan at all. Of the two, I vastly prefer Louis. But this stuff is nothing to do with who is the greater, not to me anyway...

    If you rank Louis higher because you think he beats ALi, then your list is head to head and that's fine with me. For what it's worth, I thought he was the right pick over Ali until this year.

    This is why I feel it has only a fleeting place in ranking fighters - especially when there are so much more concrete criteria.

    This is hardly relevant though? I mean so what if Louis would have beaten Ali's victims? Ali was the one who actually did it and so draws all the credit.

    Ali was the better W column and looks as good/better on film. This is why I just can't see it...might be a thread in this maybe, dunno.


    [/QUOTE]

    Just as you say.
     
    McGrain, Jun 18, 2011
    McGrain, Jun 18, 2011
    #38
  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

    37,077
    3,733
    Sep 14, 2005
    Marciano took a wicked beating from Walcott, and Walcott hit harder than Ali.

    You think Marciano would get floored 2x by oscar bonavena, or by Michael Bruce?
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 18, 2011
    SuzieQ49, Jun 18, 2011
    #39
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,065
    Mar 21, 2007
    I don't think he did actually. He might have. Either way, i'm satisfied that Frazier getting up for round 14 against Ali in Manilla is a more proven example of heart and durability than Marciano ever showed.

    Now, before you go crazy, read again what i've written. Than Marciano ever showed. You can say Marciano had more of both if you like, that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled. I'm interested in the facts though.



    You're confusing punch resistance and durability/recovery (again).

    If you follow the thread of the thread you will see that Frazier could have been knocked down 15 times against Paulie Malignaggi and it wouldn't invalidate anything I have said.
     
    McGrain, Jun 18, 2011
    McGrain, Jun 18, 2011
    #40
  11. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

    1,487
    58
    Nov 28, 2007
    Rocky more durable than Frazier? Uh, no.

    Walcott #5? Uh, hell no.

    But Walcott at #5 does make Rocky look better, right? ;)
     
    yancey, Jun 18, 2011
    yancey, Jun 18, 2011
    #41
  12. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

    1,487
    58
    Nov 28, 2007
    btw, Stevie G's rankings are the most well grounded on this thread.
     
    yancey, Jun 18, 2011
    yancey, Jun 18, 2011
    #42
  13. bigstinkybug

    bigstinkybug Member Full Member

    496
    2
    Jul 10, 2010
    * i just don't understand Holmes in top 5... and for sure not ahead of either Klitsko or Tyson... Holmes only superfight ,as champ, was against Cooney and Ali... wow
    He losses two against Spinx and just annihilated against Tyson... no way he deserves a top 5.
     
    bigstinkybug, Jun 18, 2011
    bigstinkybug, Jun 18, 2011
    #43
Page 3 of 3