My p4p list #20-11

I don’t understand rating greatness by h2h? How can we determine who is better in hypothetical imaginary fights that never happened? They are fun to do, but prove and accomplish little and fluctuate by our biases (IMO Frazier is the best H2H that I only pick Liston and Foreman to beat...yet I rank him7-9 based on accomplishment)..

You cannot disputed what a fighter actually did or didn’t do. Did they fight the best contendrs? Did they fight ranked opponents? Did they pad thier records with suspect opponents? How long did they stay on top (title defenses or other comparisons...the color line blurs this greatly)

I don’t understand hypothetical h2h for greatness rating?

 

I also didn’t have Walcott or Dempsey in my top 100 or even my shortlist. I was surprised to find i had no Ali opponents in my top 100 though Foreman and frazier made my shortlist.

 

I don't deal in hypothetical match-ups when doing lists. I look at the guys a certain fighter beat and lost to. That's the perspective that put Dempsey where he is on my list.

And I don't hold it much against a 34 year old Wills that he lost to Sharkey. Likewise Dempsey needed to first hit Sharkey in the nut sack and then when he looked to the ref to beat him, so that isn't the most impressive way to do it. And if you put much stock in the impressive way he beat Willard and Fulton you should also recognize that the win over Sharkey came in a much less impressive manner.

Dempsey never beat his outstanding contender (Wills) and not what would be his second (Greb) bar Tunney. And he of course didn't beat Tunney either. You could say something similar about Tyson, but I find his title run more impressive. And Frazier's win over Ali put him ahead of Dempsey as well. I just don't have room for Jack in my top 10. Had he beat Wills and Greb in real life and not only hypothetically he probably would have been there, though.

 

There are lots of obvious outcomes that don’t pan out. It was obvious to everyone that Tyson vs Douglas was a warm up fight. That Louis would steamroll Schmeling. That a vast majority even in the UK though Lacy would destroy Calzaghe. That is why they fight.

Do I think Dempsey would best Wills? Yes, yes I do! But I also think missing your # 1 contender has to be a minus....same for Holmes and Page. Do I think Holmes would have won? Yes. But he intentionally missed his contender. With Holmes unifying you could potential argue him up to a big 3 with Ali and Louis.

This is why I rate Jeff Chandler as the best Bantamweight, because I think he could have beaten all of the greats. Yet in reality he is on my 10-15 plane, because he couldn’t come to terms with Pintor to prove thier dominance over the era. Do I think chandler would beat him? Heck yes! Do I think he would beat Gomez...I would bet it lol. But he didn’t and I can’t rate him up because of what I imagine would happen.

 

Lol missed this earlier. Fair call mate! I probably need to be challenged on this. I probably suffer from a bias (lol most of us do on some level). I probably, maybe intentionally lol, made sure to have 2-3 slots between Ali and Louis to show that there is a slight difference and Louis is the GOAT.

In reality I have them side by side at HW now (5 years after the above listing ), and probably would have them right after one another now if I redid a new one.