My P4P Top 30

Continued good comments, you make this hard for me. Most of us now may be underrating Gonzalez from how he's looked since moving to 115. I am going to stay with my Inoue prediction if they fight, and keep him at the higher spot p4p right now.

I guess describing Crawford as unhittable wasn't quite true. But I'll still say he's excellent defensively. When he has been open and hit it's been when he's not worried about the incoming and is committed to attack.

Joshua, my opinion has generally been that heavyweights with rare exception don't compare to the best non-heavyweights. My bias is even stronger because I don't even really enjoy heavyweight boxing. And objectively, I think it's fair to call all but a very few at the bottom of my top 40 better than Joshua. They don't suffer from the shortcomings of Joshua's you mentioned, most have fought opposition in their divisions as good as Joshua at heavyweight, and those that haven't I think have strengths Joshua doesn't have. I do want to keep Briedis above him, but I will accept that the four below have trouble handling physicality, which is certainly Joshua, or in Davis' case I'm still not sure about him against top level opposition. So right below Briedis.

Bivol yes is someone I'll keep my eye on. I want to see him against at least fringe world class opposition who might test his ability before I say he's elite.

 

I haven't directly addressed Golovkin. My justification is implied in other comments. My top 5 are my creme de la creme elite. In addition to their ability what distinguishes them is their dominance. Of course it's fair to except the first Kovalev fight for Ward as Kovalev was a fellow top p4p. Golovkin lately hasn't dominated like that.

I acknowledge Golovkin's had trouble getting fights against some guys and the middleweight division lately hasn't been amazing... but the fact is GGG has established his reputation against not just merely B+/A- contenders, but opponents who weren't stylistically challenging for him. Showing your skill can beat a variety of styles is really critical for the top p4p for me. He's been a fixture on my p4p top 8 since he came to the US five years ago, I'm not a hater. I had him above Kovalev till only a couple fights before Ward-Kovalev, when many had Kovalev higher. But he's faced many either wide-open punchers or lighter-hitting boxers who couldn't trouble him physically.

His three serious challenges in Murray, Brook, and Jacobs he won, but to me did not dominate like a p4p elite should. His vulnerability to lateral movement was exposed, that he needs to be set to punch, as was his lack of head movement. He only won a 7-5 decision against Jacobs, after being really troubled with Jacobs' hit and move game, though with the kd I'm not disputing the decision. Unlike my top guys he hasn't dominated and has shown significant weaknesses.

Some have said that age is catching up with him. Regardless, over the last few years for me several boxers have come on and proved their brilliance: Loma, Crawford, Inoue, Mikey Garcia, Gonzalez and Kovalev, even if you think those two have since faltered below GGG. Rigo and Ward were already there.

I'll let the peer pressure get to me and put GGG above just Spence though. I believe in Spence, love his balance and mastery of distance and solidly-rounded style, he thinks, and he can punch, but while I try not to make this about resume, I want him to show his best against a bit more variety of top opposition. And I suppose I accept that he wasn't so dominant against Brook. Boxed smart to manage the match as it went late, but Brook outmoved and outhit him while he was too patient early. Hope the most irrational GGG true believers are content with number 11 for him.

 

I think I'm happy with this. Spent too much time with this the last two days, so won't tinker more for now anyway.

1. Mayweather
2. Lomachenko
3. Rigondeaux
4. Ward
5. Crawford
6. Inoue
7. Mikey Garcia
8. Gonzalez
9. Kovalev
10. Estrada
11. Golovkin
12. Spence
13. Lara
14. Usyk
15. Gvozdyk
16. Jacobs
17. Canelo
18. Degale
19. Brook
20. Derevyanchenko
21. Nietes
22. Thurman
23. Beterbiev
24. Linares
25. Yamanaka
26. Jermall Charlo
27. Cuadras
28. Russell
29. Ioka
30. Santa Cruz
31. Frampton
32. Danny Garcia
33. Stevenson
34. Sor Rungvisai
35. Tanaka
36. Briedis
37. Joshua
38. Davis
39. Berchelt
40. Peterson
41. Jermell Charlo

 

Because with the announced fight whatever you think of it he's active, and based on how he looked against Berto he's still the best boxer in the world.

 

Should I have included Trout over anyone?

 

I moved Gonzalez and Kovalev below Mikey, after their recent fights. Coltaine made good points about why Gonzalez should remain high. I know you and I both think Gonzalez was robbed and looked very good against SSR. It was more competitive than it should've been, but it was more the Cuadras fight that made me drop him a couple spots. If Mikey has to go down it's at least as much because Chocolatito should go up.

You're right that as destructive as Mikey was against Zlaticanin he beat someone who he was supposed to beat and who was physically and stylistically made for him. But I'm not hinging my rating of Garcia on that fight. That performance just confirmed he's as good as ever, and added a bit more to how we can regard him. It's the ability and skill that's been evident throughout his career, and that's been more impressive when he's been in with better opposition. It's not exactly important that a p4p boxer beat a taller opponent, more that he can handle that quality tall, rangy, outboxing, defensively solid style. And one of Mikey's best wins was against that kind of guy: Burgos. That was his trickiest fight. They boxed on even terms early, Burgos landed some well-timed solid shots, really put up a good peformance. But Mikey then found his perfect counter-punching range, efficiently outboxed Burgos, and opened him up to land with greater accuracy and power as it went on. Mikey might not have wowed, but that performance was I think his second best, after Salido.

And Salido, the heat Mikey takes for taking the td and the revisionist controversy that Salido was going to come on is bs and not fair. That was a masterful performance of smooth moving and timing and counter punching accuracy Salido as he came in. Mikey deserves the highest credit for it. Mikey's a way better fighter than Lopez and Loma despite the greatness he showed against Salido was too cautious in pacing himself for 12 rounds and let Salido in the fight. Salido was not going to upset Mikey.

I obviously don't make p4p primarily about resume, what I do is take it into consideration only to the extent that I think there's reason to believe the guy might have problems with higher level opposition or different styles or qualities. In Garcia's case, the only thing I question is his chin as he faces bigger men. He did suffer a flash kd against Rocky Martinez. Still, I think he's good enough to not just beat but dominate and show an amazing range of skill against everyone at 135 and 140 except Crawford and Loma, who are unluckily close to his size.

Chocolatito higher maybe, but I don't think Kovalev. To compare Mikey and Kovalev: Kovalev regardless of how you scored it has to get high praise for Ward 1. But how much do we think his ability to adjust, his mental toughness, and his stamina were exposed against Ward in the rematch? And while the quantity of world class opposition is greater than Mikey's, I don't think we can say he's fought more stylistic threats than Mikey, and when he did against Chilemba he wasn't so impressive. We're also assessing who they are now, and Mikey very likely looks better while Kovalev seems a question mark.

 

Jacobs, I rate him highly for his overall talent, skillset, and evolved ring smarts since his earlier fights. But I rate him above specifically Canelo simply because I think he'd beat him. He's a much harder puncher than anyone Canelo's fought, he combines that with the speed, movement, management of distance, and an educated jab that can trouble Canelo, as Floyd, Trout, and Lara showed against him. And Jacobs doesn't have GGG's relative stylistic weaknessnes that lead many to think Canelo beats GGG: lack of head movement, overcommitment to offense, not attacking from angles, susceptibility to being hit as he comes in. Jacobs abilities are evident not just from the Golovkin and Quillin, but from his fights against fringe contenders Mora, Truax, and others.

I really don't want to rag on Canelo's resume, but we can obviously see from it that his opponents have generally either been smaller or when they're his size just not at his ability, the notable exceptions being Lara and Trout. I believe Jacobs could emulate close to the best of Trout and Lara's gameplans, though with more power, strength, and durability, which would allow him to keep Canelo on his back foot and his hands tied, and snuff the effectiveness of Canelo's power. If you think Canelo has even a significant chance at beating Jacobs how do you think he'd do it? I can actually envision Canelo having more success against GGG than against Jacobs. I'm probably selling Canelo a bit too short. Jacobs would stay faily still at mid-range at times, and Canelo would counter and land some. And yeah if Mora could knock Jacobs down as he came in we have to assume Canelo could. But I still don't think Canelo has the foot speed, stamina, and strength to have that success consistently and win.

I also can’t resist comparing Canelo to Trinidad, because I thought Trinidad was similarly somewhat overrated. In 2000 when so many rated Tito highly p4p I insisted while he was really good and one of the atg punchers Oscar beat him and I predicted Hopkins would, and Mosley beat Oscar.

 

Derevyanchenko, I know he's an eye-opener on my list, but the guy's brilliant. Others call him a 'future' p4p but because I rate potential I'm giving it to him now. He might not look phenomenal because he doesn't have great power and doesn't usually even extend with his punches, and his average power should be even more apparent as he steps up against prime, top-level guys, and that he's short is always a potential disadvantage against long quality outside boxers. But he makes up for those physical limitations with his unmatched footwork, positioning, and general technique. He disrupts his opponent with agression, activity, and combos but never stands in front of him and patches the openings he might expose. I rate him above Thurman and others because they have apparent weaknesses that I'm confident Derevyanchenko doesn't have. I think you're aware that Thurman has looked susceptible at times in several fights.

His well-roundedness and the success he's already had with his style requires confidence and mental toughness that makes me sure of him as he takes on better pros. I think he meets expectations because he doesn't have Khytrov's defensive issues, or Korobov's stamina in a long pro fight, committment or focus issues, both in the ring and since his loss seemingly out of it, and chin. Call me hasty if you want, but I rate him highly and I want to show it with this p4p list. I guess I can be accused of selectively ignoring resume, but I have to if with some cases I want to make the point that I think the guy's ability is so good that his potential will be realised.

Well... after watching Derevyanchenko video for the last few hours and writing this, I only now reviewed some Beterbiev, and I don’t think I can say Derevyanchenko's better, and I definitely don’t know if he has the the qualities and style that could best Beterbiev. Beterbiev as a power puncher does need to be set to punch so I think he’s vulnerable to an outboxer with lateral movement but who is still strong, meaning Kovalev and Gvozdyk. But he’s also great at cutting of the ring and closing the distance, and his punching technique, strength, and power of course is frightening, to compensate for any relative weaknesses. Yeah that he’s beaten Cloud, Campillo, and the decent Maderna proves himself a bit more, but I’m putting him up a notch for his ability more than any criticism of Derevyanchenko. Keeping Nietes above Beterbiev, so it’s Nietes, Beterbiev, Derevyanchenko, Thurman.

I'll also consider moving Gonzalez above Mikey, but I’m not sure, maybe I’ll just say I will if he beats SSR and is more impressive doing so than his last two fights. And I’m sticking with Jacobs over Canelo. I didn't expect to have to back up my p4p list with this much analysis! But we should have to if we take p4p to be more than recent resume comparison.