My stab at a top 20 HW List

I am not calling Johansson a coward. My opinion is that Ingo was scared to death of the size and reputation of Sanders. Why did Ingo not throw punches back? Why was he afraid to let go of his right hand? I think he could have taken Sanders had he displayed some balls. Ingo is very good. He just got totally intimidated out there. Let your hands go! Sanders was not better than johansson. No way.

 

"I am not calling Johansson a coward"

You could have fooled me. "**** himself" is pretty strong talk, especially about a nineteen year old who was probably not as experienced as his much larger and older opponent. I think he was probably just confused and also most likely had not been as well schooled as Sanders. Sweden was not exactly the center of the boxing world back then.

 

Johansen seems to throw and land at 43 seconds (not all that cleanly admitedly). Sanders lands three punches, at most from the footage, and none were really that great or even seemed to have that much effect. When the referee warns Ingemar, to when he stops the fight, neither fighter lands a punch! Ingemar throws a couple but misses. If Stander was pressing the fight, surely he would have needed to try to get close enough to actually throw a punch.

I am with old fogey. Ingemar moves across, and doesnt even retreat backwards. If Sanders laned heaps of leather or even if he was chasing him around, then maybe. But, i think there is an argument that under current amateur rules, the score would ahve been nil all. i really dont think it should have been stopped.

 

1. I don't know about more experienced. Johansson accumulated and impressive 61-10 record in the amatuers. Ed Sanders amatuer record was 43-4. About 25 less fights. Sanders was pretty young himself, I think 21 years old.

Below is a brief description of the fight. I believe you will find the opinion of the RING correspondent to be similiar to my own. "Ingemar wanted no part of him."



ED (BIG ED) SANDERS
HAYES EDWARD SANDERS
HEAVYWEIGHT
BORN: March 24, 1930, Los Angeles, CA
DIED: December 14, 1954, Boston, MA from a blood clot on the brain
sustained in his last professional fight.
Height: 6-4
Weight: 220
Amateur Record: 43-4-0 (Idaho State Boxing Team; US Navy Boxing Team)
Professional Record: 6-2-1 (3)

Amateur Highlights
1950 NCAA Championship (Idaho State)
1951 NCAA Championship (Idaho State)
1952 NCAA Championship (Compton Junior College)
1952 Gold Medal: Heavyweight Boxing - Olympic Games in Helsinki, Finland

1951
Apr 6 Jack Scheberies East lansing, MI L 3 (NY Times 4/7/51)
(NCAA Semi-Finals) The bout had an odd ending. Scheberies dropped Sanders
at 1:05 of the 3rd round. The bell was rung then and it was officially
ruled as a decision for Scheberies)

1952
Mar 24 Norvel Lee New York L 3 (NY Times 3/25/52)
(Finals - Intercity Heavyweight Golden Gloves Title)

May -- Johnny Little (Ire) Dublin, Ireland W 3 (Ireland vs US)
May -- Bernard Navarre Paris, France TKO 2 (France vs US)
May -- Willie Walloscheck Berlin, Germany KO 1 (Germany vs US)
May -- Francesco Cavicchi Chicago, IL W 3 (Italy vs US)
Jun 7 Lloyd Willis Omaha KO by 1
(Mid-West Regional Olympic Boxing Trials)

Lloyd ended Ed's long winning streak with a devastating knockout
victory. Lloyd was a soldier stationed at Ft. Riley, Kansas.
"Willis dazed Sanders with a series of solid right hand smashes
in the first minute of the fight, then chased him around the ring
...with both fists flying. Sanders absorbed enough punishment for
ten men before he crumpled to the deck. He tried to get up but
pitched head-long into the ropes and was counted out."- Spike Webb, Boxing Coach, US Naval Academy - The Ring - Oct 52 p38

Jun 18 Jack Scheberies Kansas City TKO 2
(First Round of Olympic Trial Berth)
Jun 21 Lloyd Willis Kansas City KO 2
(Final Olympic Boxing Trials)

" Willis stood up to Sanders at the start and it was obvious he
came prepared to to knock out Big Ed as he had done two weeks before
in the Mid-West Regional Trials. Willis landed several good blows
in the early fighting but he slowed up as Sanders began to find the
range with jolting lefts and rights which he fired to both head and
body. Sanders buckled Willis' knees with a right cross to the jaw
near the end of the first round and then moved in relentlessly.
The action was still rugged in the second frame but it was Sanders
who was doing the damage and he finally dropped Willis with a terrific
left hook. Willis staggered to his feet but was in no condition to do
battle with Sanders who knocked him colder than a February morn with
a vicious right-uppercut to the chin." - Spike Webb, Boxing Coach, US Naval Academy - The Ring - Oct 52 p38


1952 Olympic Games - Helsinki (July 28 - August 2)
Jul 29 Hans Jost (SUI) KO 1 First Round
Jul 30 Bye
Jul 31 Giacomo Di Segni (ITA) KO 3 Quarter-Final Round
Aug 1 Andries C. Nieman (SAF) TKO 2 Semi-Final Round

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1953
Feb -- Charles (Sonny) Liston Chicago L 3
(Chicago Golden Gloves)

After winning the gold medal, Sanders served 2 years in the Navy and turned
professional in Boston where he was stationed.

Professional Record

1954
Mar 8 Sonny Nichols Boston KO 1 (debut)
Apr 1 Billy Booker Boston KO 1
Apr 10 Henry Anderson Boston KO 2
Apr 24 Willie Wilson Boston L 5
May 23 Battling Jack Flood Boston W Dsq 4
Aug 12 Willie Wilson Boston W 8
Oct 5 Bert Whitehurst Boston D 10
Oct 26 Bert Whitehurst Boston W 10
Dec 11 Willie James Boston KO by 11
(New England Heavyweight Title)
(Died from injuries sustained in loss to James)

 

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Thanx Mr. Curtin

 

AP coverage on Johansson-Sanders for Fog Man

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Sonny Liston's Amatuer record



1952
--- starts boxing around August
Oct 31 Paroled from prison

1953
St. Louis Golden Gloves
Feb 13 Luther Corder St. Louis, MO KO2
Feb 13 LLoyd Willis St. Louis, MO W 3 Finals

26th Chicago, Golden Gloves Tournament of Champions, Feb 23-Mar 7
Feb 24 Donnie Fleeman, Fort Worth, TX KO 3
Feb 24 Carl McClure, Oklahoma City, OK W 3
Feb 25 Tullos Lee Mead, Memphis, TN KO 2 Qf
Mar 6 Ben Bankhead, Kansas City, MO W 3 sf
Mar 6

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, Los Angeles, CA W 3 Final

Chicago-NY Intercity, Chicago, IL
Mar 26 Julius Griffin Chicago, IL W 3 Liston down in 1st

65th USA National AAU, Boston, MA
Apr 14 Lou Graff Boston, MA KO 1 (0:50)
Apr 15 James McCarter Boston, MA L 3 QF

International Golden Gloves, at St. Louis, MO
Jun 23 Herman Schreibauer (RFA) St. Louis, MO TKO 1

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Thanx Dan

 

Considering the force that Foreman was in 70's (with 2xdestruction of Frazier) and that he recaptured his title after 20 years, Foreman looks like top 5 heavyweight.

But when I' looking closer I have doubts about that. First of all Frazier was past his prime. Still dangerous and very good but not the same fighter after Ali I. Two great and dominant wins though. We also have demolition of Norton and slugfest with Lyle. Those were his biggest wins in 70's. But we can't forget about L to Ali and Young. Especially the second defeat hurts Big George.

After comeback he defeated past prime Cooney and won WBA, IBF belts after sensational one punch KO over Moorer. Foreman also proved his power by stopping legions of journeyman. He was outboxed by Holyfield and lost to Morrison. Also had two controversial W/L fights with Schulz and Briggs (you pick which one he lost or won). While being champion Foreman refused to fight 37 year old Tony Tucker and to give rematch to Schulz.

This is some career but I think I feel better placing other HW's higher. Holyfield was inconsistent but I think that;s because always fought the best, and when you fight the best the risk of defeat is greater. After jumping to heavyweight from CW Holy defeated some solid and legit fighters before getting the title shot at Buster Douglas. He destroyed Douglas and later beat two game legends in Foreman and Holmes.

Later we have unforgettable trylogy with Riddick Bowe. Even if Evander was 1-2 in this fights I gave him and Riddick great applause for the showdown they created. He suprisingly lost to Moorer (Holyfield won on my card by a round though) but he avenfed that defeat by a KO.

Then two legacy fights with Tyson in which Holyfield soldified his ATG status. On my card Holy lost two times with Lennox but was close for a draw in a rematch and gave spirited effort even pushing to 40 years old. Add trylogy with prime John Ruiz (which I respect very much) and win over young Rahman. Fight with Valuev which I think Holy won is another point that elevates him so high in my ranking. I would be happy to hear your opinion about Foreman and Holyfield ranking :good

 

Comparing the two big fights:

Biggest Win - Frazier v Tyson - Both ATGs passed prime, but totally dominated. Advantage Foreman (slight)

Title win - Douglas v Moorer - Two solid Lineal Champions, who werent really the best in the world but did both beat the best. Cancel each other out, although Moorer was in much better condition than Douglas, Douglas was a better fighter than Moorer. Draw.

2nd Best Win - Norton v Bowe - Huge fight and Bowe was probably better than norton but, bowe also beat Evander twice. And NOrton had a better win over Ali than anyone Bowe beat. Norton was crushed. Advantage Foreman.

Best Loss - Muhammed Ali vs Lewis. Ali was a loss, but it is often forgotten that Foreman did come within an inch of beating the greatest ever. He was right in the fight. Foreman never got a rematch. Lewis was kept to a draw, but i doubt Lewis beats Ali and most agree it was a lucky draw. Advantage Foreman (twice)

Older Performances - Loss to Holyfield v Loss to Valuev. The Loss to Valuev probably should have been a win, but still, Valuev isnt in the same league as Prime Holyfield, and Foreman was surprisingly competitive. I think Foremans loss was more impressive.

Other losses Young, Morrison and Briggs v Byrd, Toney, Ruiz and Donald. No Question here. Young is a lot better than Holyfields crew, the morrisson that beat Foreman, probably is favourite or at least on par with the three while Briggs was a very debateable decision. All in all, i think theadvantage goes to Foreman again.

Looking at things objectively, leaving aside the fact that Foreman's second career (and first for that matter) was so outstanding and his performances good, when they had no right to be, i would have to say that Foreman should be quite clearly above Holyfield.

 

I think he has some big problems to show he is top 10. What would help, would be for whoever he beats to go on and dominate the division.

Wlad, has some major problems in making top 10. Not fighting Vitali makes it hard because even now, he is not necessarilly the best fighter of his generation, even. A win in his last fight over Vitali would definitely help massively.

Getting knocked down and out so often is still a big hurdle to come back from. I know Dempsey has the early ko, Johnson does and some others do, but to be honest, most of the bonafide top 10 dont. And when they do, it is usually a bona fide great puncher that does it and/or there are dive allegations. Purity, Sanders and Brewster do not really qualify as great punchers (although in reality all may hit pretty hard still) and this is a big hurdle to get over. Plus, Wlad has pretty much either lost by KO, or barely held on to win every close fight he has been in. I think he would gain from a couple of life and death struggles.

 

heres my top 32

1.louis
2.ali
3.marciano
4dempsey
5holmes
6johnson
7lennox lewis
8hollyfield
9foreman
10tyson
11 baer
12jeffries
13 schmeling
14liston
15charles
16 walcott
17 patterson
18frazier
19ingo johanason
20primo carnera
21buster douglas
22gene tunney
23bowe
24 willard
25 sharkey
26 rahman
27 tommy burns
28 moorer
29 mike spinks
30 braddock
31` leon spinks
32 shannon briggs


for me the important thing is winning a title by KO and being good enough never to lose a title fight by KO. The knockout is the litmus test in proving dominance. That also goes for forcing the stopage, its not just about punch power but winning with ease over the best of your time.

 

I have to disagree Boilermaker.

Frazier was blind in one eye and fought the likes of Terry Daniels and Ron Stander after he defeated Ali. He came to fight with Foreman overweight and we all know how bad this style matchup was for Joe. I belive that Tyson was in better shape than Frazier and it was the last time that we saw Mike well prepared for a fight.
Holyfield changed his style for Tyson he wasn't no dancer and volume puncher no more. He was Rough, tough, strategist. I rate this performance higher than Foreman's beating of Frazier.

Why did you compared Foreman's second title win and Holyfield's first? I think if you want to compare the Moorer fight then you have to pick Evander's win over Riddick Bowe.

Let's focus on WINS first

You're right even if all those loses with Byrd, Donald, Toney were in very bad period of Holyfields career.

I will compare Holy and George as I see it

Foreman:

Best wins

Frazier x 2
Norton
Lyle
Moorer
Chuvalo

Notable wins

Peralta x 2, Roman, Savarese, Schulz (?)

Loses:

Ali, Young, Holyfield, Morrison, Briggs (?)

Holyfield:

Best wins

Tyson x 2
Bowe
Moorer
Ruiz
Rahman
Holmes
Foreman
Douglas
Mercer

Notable wins:

Thomas, Stewart x 2, Dokes, Bean, Oquendo

Draws:

Lewis (?)

Loses:

Bowe x 2, Moorer, Lewis, Ruiz, Byrd, Donald, Toney, Ibragimov, Valuev (?)

Even with all those loses Holyfields wins are so stacked that they overshadow his defeats imo.

 

choklab, even with your criterias your list is terrible :good

 

Why is Ali no 2, by your criteria.

He couldnt won the title great the first time, but couldnt show dominance over Frazier, Norton or Spinks! This kind of takes away from his legacy on your criteria.

Fitzsimmons needs to be much, much higher. Not even in the top 32, beat he knocked out all of the very best fighters of his time, with James Jeffries the only exception, and he was old and past it by this time. Also, John L Sullivan epitomises the dominance you are talking about, he must be in the top 32 on your criteria, and probably the top 10 or higher. He not only knocked them out, but he did it in 4 rounds most of the time. No one has been more dominant. I d have thought Tyson, Liston and Foreman would all be higher under your criteria. And have you thought about Oliver MCCall. Noone managed to knock him down. Surely that must count for a fair bit, especially when he knocked down Lewis and was in there with the best of them.