My stab at a top 50 all time p4p

Who cares, as long as there styles works, it should make LITTLE if any differnt if one was a slickster or not. Going by that ranking, We should also rank Chris Byrd, Paul Pendler, Jim Corbett, Jack Sharkey(Who can box and brawl) James J. Braddock, and others over Marciano.

 

Might as well boot Ted Kid Lewis, Henry Armstrong, Micky Walker, and Harry Greb off that list also.

 

just shut up, yeah he can make a case for having a better resume actually. He beat 6 lineal world champs, how many did chavez beat? I dont count those abc garbage crap, im talking about the real champ.

 

Good stuff. Making a list should be a progressive exercise, for we all have things to learn and revise. One fighter that's probably worth your attention is Jim Driscoll. A fantastic little boxer, who impresses on film as well as having a decent resume. He and Packey McFarland have style and technique before their times.

Holmes and Marciano can probably be left out of a top 50 (but I admit the heavies aren't my specialty so i'm more willing to disregard them - my own bias of course) but it's pretty hard to see 50 better fighters than Kid Gavilan. I mean he has wins over the likes of Basilio, Graham, Williams, Jack, Turner, Davey, Bratton as well as a close loss to Robinson. Thats very impressive to me (especially when I consider Basilio, Graham, Williams and Jack to be all in the top 100). Not to mention how impressive he looked on film. Someone like Billy Smith for instance simply can't match that.

I have Ketchel in my top 100, but I'm not as impressed by him or his resume as some others are. I think a lot is made of the 6 round bout which he had with Sam Langford where he seemed to match him, but I don't place too much emphasis on such short bouts really. They aren't meaningless, but surely what we can take from them has to be limited. Other than that he has some nice wins against Philly Jack, Papke and the Sullivan Twins, but is that sufficient for a top 50 spot? Maybe... especially considering how dominant he was, but then you see hm on film against Papke and Johnson and you ask yourself, top 50 for this guy? I say no...

I always find it hard to place the heavies, and Jack Dempsey is no exception. I'll leave that alone and claim ignorance. As to Mayweather, I'm one who isn't as impressed by Floyd as many others are. I thought he lost to Castillo in the first fight, won by 3 points in the rematch and lost by a point to an old Oscar who himself isn't in my top 50. Could be my madness, but I'm just not that gung-ho about him. He is talented, has great reflexes and very sharp punches, but I've always felt that with his workrate and low punch output, many greats would work him over. Maybe, by the time he's done he'll make my top 50, as of right now, I think he struggles to make my top 100 actually.

:good

Jack Britton is probably one of the most underrated fighters. I myself have given him short thrift in the past, but I'm going to remedy that. If only tere was some film of him, I'm sure he'd be more prominent in people's thinking. I see how good Ted Kid Lewis looks on film and if Jack was going evens with Ted over their series he must have been something special. And you're right, he's a combo of smarts and toughness. How many fighters known for their boxing ability can claim to being ko'ed just once over so many bouts? NONE!

 

On the other hand, he's about the SAME SIZE AS, or only a few pounds bigger than, Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles.

And while I think a prime Charles MIGHT have a good chance of edging Rocky, I dont think Moore ever would have.

I believe Moore was more comfortable at 188 at the time they fought than he'd be at 175, but if you want to scale Marciano down it's only a few pounds. And Moore was arguably at his career peak.

Basically, how many 185 pounders in history would you pick over Rocky Marciano ?

You cant just argue that at 185 he deserves to be lumped in with all the heavyweights, 220 pound men and such, but at the same time use his lack of size to lessen his chances head-to-head against bigger heavyweights. That's having it both ways.
So is giving Holyfield credit for looking good at "cruiserweight" and then ignoring Marciano's obvious head-to-head status at a similar body weight.

If "cruiserweight" means anything, then surely the general trend of added weight equalling some sort of advantage, generally speaking, continues past 190 or 195 pounds.

I dont believe 265 pounders are often at an actual advantage over 225 pounders, but I believe 225 pounders are usually at an actual advantage over 185 pounders. Somewhere there's a point where you have to give a guy credit and allowances for being smaller.

So if you think Marciano gets beat by Lennox Lewis, you must consider that there's some sort of advantage that doesn't just mean that Marciano was "lacking" in his division. It's an advantage that we would assume across the board, say, if a 185 pound clubfighter fought a 245 pound clubfighter.

And against fighters who were the same weight as him, Marciano performs very well. He beats any version of Archie Moore, IMO, and at the same body weight. Perhaps Charles too. And against a "cruiserweight" Holyfield, I'd pick Marciano too. I think he beats Patterson, Schmeling.
I'd give Dempsey and maybe Langford a 50-50 chance, but I'd probably favour Marciano over Tunney, as tough as Gene was.

Head-to-head, I wouldn't favour ANYONE of his same body weight over Marciano, and he actually beat two guys who you rank in the top 10, p4p of all time.

He simply was.

 

Chavez's resume: Castillo, Mayweather X2, Lockridge, La Porte, Rosario, Limon, Ramirez, Taylor X2, Camacho, Haugen, Randall, etc.

Compare Saldivar's please.

Laguna, Ramos, Winstone X3, Legra, Rojas, Famechon, etc.

I'll take Chavez's overall.

 

If your not going to add the Rock in because he was a brawler, and than add Jones in because he was a boxer, you might as well though out all the other brawlers like Lewis, Greb, Walker ete.

 

:blood

 

its funny how you include wins like limon and taylor 2 when they were both ancient. Not to mention that chavez really didnt beat frankie randall the second time.

You also forgot to mention about 6-8 guys that salidvar beat that would have most likely held some sort of ibf or wbo belt if it was around during the 60's.

Juan Ramirez, guerrero, seki, dwight hawkins, robertson and eloy sanchez were all top ranked fighters during thier time and some of them were as high as #2 at some point. And this is in a 40 fight career, compared to a man that fought 3x as much.

Sugar Ramos and Ismael Laguna are already in the hall of fame. Johhny Famechon and Howard Winstone will most likely get inducted. So thats 4 potential hall of famers in a 40 fight career.