My stab at a top 50 all time p4p

saldivar beat laguna only 10 months before laguna beat carlos ortiz.

 

True, totally slipped my mind, even though I had just reviewed it earlier. Though that doesn't exactly help you and Mantequilla's case of Winestone being a HOF'er or better than Laguna though, so I'm not really sure why you decided to chime in with that, as it helped my case.

 

Well i aint saying laguna sucked or had years of improving to do when he fought Saldivar.MOre that he still needed a few fights against top opposition before he really hit his prime.The jump in weight probably helped as well.

As far as Winstone goes, his durability was his biggest weakness and the Saldivar fights were a brutal trilogy.Without checking boxrec to be sure, i believe he had sixty-odd fights by the time he took on Seki and Legra.

Especially back then Flyweights, Bantams and Feathers tended to peak earlier and burn out by the time they got to 30.Winstone's fading at the time he did was not unusual.It's part of what made Jofre's comeback so awesome.

My appreciation for Winstone stems from his skills.If he had not been totally featherfisted he could have been an all-time great.He's a bit like the welsh Lionel Rose.

 

Fair enough, he did indeed have one of the best left jabs I've seen of fighters from the lower weights.

 

Those three fights against Saldivar definately took a toll on Winstone longevity wise IMO. In their first two encounters Winstone took a beating in the last third of both fights, and there were long periods of time where Vicente had Howard pinned against the ropes and was landing a LOT of leather on him yet somehow Howard managed to stay upright.

Winstone could never keep up with Saldivar down the stretch as he tired late (partly due to Saldivar`s constant body punching in the early to mid-rounds) whereas Vicente got stronger as the fight progressed. Their third fight followed the same pattern, but this time Howard`s manager Eddie Thomas threw in the towel in the 12th instead of letting his fighter take yet another beating down the stretch.

I have about 8 fights of Winstone`s including all three fights vs Saldivar and have watched the trilogy several times now, and it is clear as day that Howard had lost a step in terms of reflexes and timing by the time he squared off against Mitsonuri Seki. So believe me when I tell you that Howard wasn`t the same fighter after the trilogy with Saldivar.

Also, keep in mind as Mantequilla pointed out that by the time he squared off vs Legra the second time Howard was already a veteran of almost 70 bouts and was pushing 30 years of age which in the lower weight divisions is considered ancient. Factor in his three physically taxing fights against Saldivar and it explains why Legra had such an easy time with him in the return (I have that bout BTW).

On a seperate note I concur with Mantequilla on his views of Winstone. He was an exceptional boxer and Mantequilla comparing him to a Welsh version of Lionel Rose is an accurate comparison, although I would say that Howard was the more durable fighter between the two. Howard had a beautiful jab and was very light/quick on his feet, however I always felt he did not throw his right hand nearly enough which frustrated me to no end when watching him fight.

 

So you concur that he was the best fighter Saldivar faced? Better than Laguna? Better than Ramos?

 

Yes, I do.

 

You're right he is in my top 100, and yes that should have been a win for Ortiz.

 

I don't think Winstone was more skilful than Laguna and he certainly didn't accomplish as much as him.

Winstone was basically a Ken Buchanan without the stamina or the granite chin. I think Laguna would beat him in a p4p match up between the two (especially since I had Laguna outboxing Buchanan before Ken's superior workrate kicked it to take the last couple of rounds to edge both fights. That wouldn't be an issue for Laguna against Winstone). Laguna is the more offensively competent fighter (Winstone had a great jab but the rest of his offense was average) and whilst Winstone has the edge defensively, I think Laguna has the bigger edge offensively.

Also have to disagree about Saldivar-Laguna. Laguna was holding his own there from the rounds I've seen and I think (based on that evidence) that he could hold his own as a featherweight against the best Winstone.

Not sure where the Winstone-Rose comparison comes from either. They were chalk and cheese when it came to offense and defense. Unless you were talking about feather-fistedness of course, which both had.

 

Oh it's definitly unreasonable to not put Whitaker in the Top 20. I have in the top 10, but having him outside of the top 20 is unreasonable.

 

I thought Winstone threw great combos as well as having a great jab, though as Raging Bull says he often didn't throw the right enough due to a bad injury he had suffered in a factory prior to boxing.He was also a capable infighter and shortened everthing up well in close.

In other words i think he was pretty complete bar the lack of power.

Not sure if i would consider Laguna to be better offensively.He had better power, as well as a great long jab, right hand and sneaky uppercuts, but he did have a tendency to slap his punches, not much of a hook and his infighting was sub-par.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses really.Winstone's was more glaring, but he was the more polished of the two.


As far as the Buchanan bouts go, i thought they were even until Buchanan took over after 10 so not much difference in thought there.

Neither were really able to truly outbox the other for any length of time IMO

Winstone and Rose were very similar to me in their overall strengths and weaknesses and approaches, plus they fought close to each other so i tend to lump them in with a few other stylists of that time to an extent.The main point of comparison i was getting at was really them being great pure boxers while lacking other necessary traits in the face of less-skilled but greater adversaries.

Strictly as a far as how he actually looked in the ring, Ohba would maybe be a better comparison were his career not so different.

 

I'll give you his infighting skills, he did possess a good inside game, but I wouldn't say he threw great combos.

Laguna did slap quite a bit, but he also got off more punches in flurries than Winstone did. Most guys that flurry, like he did, do tend to slap. Winstone wasn't really a flurrier. He was more of a technician, precision shot placer. Laguna might not have had quite the technique Winstone had, but if they ever squared off, I see Laguna being busier, and some of his slaps will probably be the difference in the fight.

Though I had Laguna edging both fights before Ken came on late, that's pretty much true.

That's fair enough.

 

S_S,

When I mentioned that I agreed with Mantequilla`s comparison of Winstone to Rose, it wasn`t based on styles but rather on similar physical attributes such as both men being featherfisted and having an excellent jab for example... hope that clears it up.

BTW, got your dvd`s yesterday, thanks again pal.

 

Fair point mate.

Sorry for not labelling the fights I sent. I'll pm you the disc-by-disc breakdown which will hopefully make the fights a little easier to identify.:good

 

No Tommy Loughran or Jim Driscoll?