My ten greatest heavyweights

LOL, this is getting funny. No, I think you misinterpret.

Bodhi said that Jeffries' first 10 opponents were all contenders. I said no, 6 of his first 10 contenders were either total unknowns who were never contenders or shot ex-greats. 2 were not contenders when he fought them, but became contenders later in their careers.

So, the fact is that only two (2) of Jeff's first 10 fights were against contenders. Right? Anyway, that's what I mean to say to Bodhi.

 

"They" didnt make him relinquish the title, he simply had no need to claim the title because he won bigger, more important and more prestigous titles. The coloured title was not held in high regard at that time, because there were not enough top class fighters around.

I agree that Jackson was no longer the best coloured fighter in the world but he was technically the lineal champion still.

 

Janitor posted a lineal coloured champion list on this forum:


THE COLORED HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP LINEAGE

1888
Aug 8 Peter Jackson KO19 George Godfrey, San Francisco, CA

Jackson never defended the title and it lapsed for close to eight years.

1896

Dec 21 Bob Armstrong KO19 Charley Strong, New York, NY
-This was billed as for the vacant title.

1897

Mar 6 Armstrong KO6 Joe Butler, Philadelphia, PA

1898

Jan 29 Frank Childs KO2 Bob Armstrong, Chicago, IL
Feb 26 Frank Childs WF3 Klondike Haynes, Chicago, IL
Jun 4 Frank Childs D6 Charley Strong, Chicgo, IL
Sep 14 George Byers W20 Frank Childs, Chicago, IL

According to this list, when Jackson laid down for Jeffries March 22, 1898, he was no longer the champ. Frank Childs was. So Jeffries couldn't use the excuse "he was the reigning black HW champ, for Christ's sake, I thought he would be a good opponent."

I think Jeffries should have refused to fight him when he first saw the cane.

 

Here's a quote from Peter Jackson's box rec bio:

"Jackson died following a long bout with tuberculosis on July 13, 1901."

I wonder if he had tb when he fought Jeffries in '98?

 

I think they are a pain in the ass to compile.

The problem is you seem not to understand what I wrote. Perhaps it is the way I put it. English isn´t my first language, so sorry if that´s the case. I try to put it more clearly now:

Name me another hw champ that fought six fighters which were contenders at one point in their careers. You won´t find any.

You seem to have a problem with your reading comprehension here, mate. I never wrote his first 10 fighters were all contenders. I wrote that he was fighting contenders from about the get go that does not mean his first 10 opponents were all contenders. Actually you brought up the first 10 contenders argument. Please read it up again.

And yeah, fighting 6 fighters who were contenders or greats at some points in their career in your first ten fights is huge, like it or not. Simply because nobody else did that.

 

I think often lineage gets overstated and in reality usurpation has already occured.

Ali was not really the champ in the holmes fight. He'd lost really to norton and norton was considered the best hw till he lost to larry.

In some respects it could be seen as a unification between the man who was the best hw and the former lineal champ but in reality it's a sad night that adds nothing to larry's career, hell it even added very little to neon's career.

I think it's quite clear that larry was the hw champ in 78 when he beat norton.

Similar incidents occured at other times with tyson usurping lineage and an argument could be made that louis wasn't really the champ until he beat max.

Lineage is a good starting point but after that you really need to dig deeper for a greater understanding as this thread is showing.

Jackson didn't lose his title in the ring nor did he seem to defend it in the ring. I wonder what circumstances transpired for him to not be considered the premiere black hw at the time of the jeffries fight.

 

OK, maybe it's your ESL problem. But when you said "He faced contenders during his first ten fights. Which champ did that outside of him?", I thought you meant all ten. If not, then your question as to "which champ did that outside of him?" Doesn't make much sense.
As you said, Leon Spinks did. Pete Rademacher faced Champion Floyd Patterson in his first pro fight. He did pretty well, so in his second, he faced Zora Folley. In his tenth fight he faced Brian London. I don't have the time to analyze the history of boxing on this issue, but I'll bet there are others. And in his tenth fight he fought Brian London in his prime. So Rademacher definitely did face "contenders during his first ten fights".

I think it is understandable if I couldn't catch your drift. Maybe it's just the ESL thing.

Cheers

 

I like this thread. Lots of cool old guys... now all its missing is john garfield

 

And that´s what so special about Jeff, he dominated all of them. Look how good those other guys did. Jeff was special. No one but him managed to squeeze so many contenders and (ex-)greats in so few fights. And not just squeezing them in but beating them. Very dominant champ despite his inexperience. Few fighters did that in their era and that´s why IMO he deserves to rank highly.

Old guys? Pleny of people argueing here aren´t even 30 yet ...

 

Welcome here, it's as good a list as any, and has different names than most. Don't agree, but like your originality in picks like Cribb.

 

It comes down to this.

Yes Jackson was a shell, but even knowing his condition, I would not have put young prospect with Jeffries level of experience in with him.

Even people who knew Jackson was shot seem to have expected him to give Jeffries some problems.