My thoughts on how Cotto can use the tools at his disposal to beat Mayweather

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Bogotazo, Feb 6, 2012.


  1. Leon

    Leon The Artful Dodger Full Member

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    :lol::lol::rofl:rofl:patsch, this is some Victor Ortiz level material

    I read this book too. He went as far as saying Floyd's punches do not hurt.
     
  2. Leon

    Leon The Artful Dodger Full Member

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    Castillo crouched and used crouch feints to fire **** from these lowered positions. Cotto(e) should try this to the best of his ability considering how he already doesn't fight very tall. Floyd himself has a similar tactic where he gets victims worried about the jab shank to the body. Then when he bends his knees to feint they'll think about the shank only for him to stick them upstairs with the right.
     
  3. SJS19

    SJS19 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Thinking about it, I think you've got it spot on:good
     
  4. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    Yup, that jab to the body does wonders for him, especially in terms of setting up the right.

    So do you think the crouch in the pic from 24/7 I posted looks alright? This is the main reason I bumped the thread lol. I think it's definitely advantageous to bring Floyd's hands downwards so that he can come up from under with something, I'm just curious as to whether people think the level he's at there is dangerous or positive.

    (*Just a side-note, now that you mention that, it adds intrigue to seeing a JMM-Mayweather Jr. fight at another time & another weight. I don't count on him winning, but when Marquez leads and baits counters in the pocket, he ducks low and peers through his opponents guard as if looking through a window, and times shots from a variety of angles.)
     
  5. SJS19

    SJS19 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :think Unusual.

    It'd suggest body work obviously, and with Cotto being less than Mayweather in terms of height and length. I'm curious on how Diaz wants Cotto to get into that position. You can't dip and walk up to Mayweather, he'll hit you.

    Double the jab, the dip to that position. Cotto can throw an up jab from there, or commit to the body, it's really intreuging. If they think that they're stronger than Mayweather, then that may be a position to give Cotto leverage, to move Mayweather onto the ropes. :huh

    Pedro Diaz makes this fight interesting for me. I was saying the other day that he's one of the top three coaches in the Boxing world, anyone who's seen the Cuban amatuer team should be able to vouch for that. He knows things that I can't conceive, and I watch him closely every time I get the chance.

    If Cotto gets that low, I expect Mayweather will hold, and lean on Cotto to tire him out.
     
  6. SJS19

    SJS19 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's actually bought the Hatton fight into my mind.

    Once Mayweather adjusted to Hatton's foot speed, he had an easy time, Cotto lacks that footspeed.
     
  7. Leon

    Leon The Artful Dodger Full Member

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    A bit higher and less hunch back. Castillo didn't have to go into that low of a position in order for the technique to work. Floyd showed in his last fight that he will fire uppercuts if someone tries that bobbing and weaving **** on him, getting too low and exposing the head is AZZking for it. We know Cotto(e) has been open for uppercut sandwiches and used to lean his head much too forward. Old, ingrained habits often come back when **** hits the fan.

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    He used his left hook here to engineer the collision of Ortiz ducking head into his right uppercut.
     
  8. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    Interesting points; I agree that you can't get in that way, but you can lead with something and then dip. If Floyd leans on him I think Cotto won't hesitate to try a Clottey-esque shove. Maybe not a slam, but if he could push Margarito back, I expect him to try and push Floyd back on the inside when he finds himself there. One thing I've seen all ATG infighters do is use their left arm/elbow to smother the right hand by leaning. Chavez did this with great expertise against Rosario. If Cotto can smother the right hand inside, he's halfway home.

    I think Floyd made a smart tactical decision there to lay back on the ropes. No need to fluster yourself and trip up trying to constantly time his rushes, just lay on the ropes and outwork him before circling out and landing flush. Floyd would rather out-slug the swarmer than pivot out constantly. But you're right, he did start to anticipate Hatton's charges with that laser right, which is why I think it's important that Cotto switches up his trajectory.

    Great point, Floyd has fought enough infighters to know that a fighter's going to react to a higher punch by dipping into an uppercut if their focus is bobbing and weaving. When Cotto is in that range, he HAS to be throwing, not docile. Throwing with Floyd when his chin is in the air like that would pose a greater risk to Floyd than Miguel I think, who has his chin tucked well.
     
  9. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kUuhEiggno&feature=g-all-u[/ame]
     
  10. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    Hey JDK, I wanted to revisit our conversation after I reviewed the Malignaggi fight. I just saw it, and the two biggest things that stood out to me were 1. how physical of a fighter Cotto used to (and still can) be, and 2. how well Cotto was getting inside by throwing and then moving while stepping into his next punch. Jab, slip the next punch and roll into the pivot of a right hand to the body. It also seems to me that after his move to 147, he was a much more dynamic boxer, but that's kind of besides the point.

    The way he got inside reminded me of certain tactics Marquez used. While Floyd pitched a shut-out against him, Marquez was able to time certain punches when in close. He's not nearly as dynamic as an aggressor than he is as a counter-puncher, but he does have success using certain baits and counters with a low center of gravity; this goes back to the side point I was mentioning to Leon about a fight between the two at 130, and also the picture I posted which has Cotto ducking low at mid-range when sparring as shown briefly on 24/7.

    This video isn't very good due to the cut off at the top, but it reveals the virtues of throwing with Mayweather at a low level as the shorter man:

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZvo6IF528[/ame]
     
  11. AnthonyW

    AnthonyW ESB Official Gif Poster Full Member

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  12. JDK

    JDK Well-Known Member Full Member

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    That's a good point, B. I do think Mayweather will be cautious at first mainly because of Cotto's power. Not his angles or feints.
    Like you, I believe feinting is a major key into getting Floyd uncomfortable. But Cotto is not big on that. He doesn't waste his punches and he throws them in a very orthodox lines. That makes him very predictable.
    The other major tool which Cotto lacks in his arsenal, and is also very crucial into landing on Floyd, are angles. Cotto's own strengths will be his weakness this Sat. He is too educated for his own good, if that makes sense. You need a wild factor to keep Floyd guessing. Something like Manny's flurries. Not that I think Manny would be able to get inside and throw them at will, but that's another convo.
    Look for Cotto look alright in the first 5 rounds. After that, his own lack of unorthodox rhythm and predictability will give him away.
    Floyd tko after the 9th
     
  13. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    I never thought of Cotto having fought under a crouch, at least not the traditional idea of a crouch. For example, having your head past your lead leg is not an aspect of the crouch. If you mean crouch in a loosely meaning of just in terms of dipping low then that's another discussion. I think getting low, ducking you chin, and moving your head is not a bad approach. Cotto's attributes might not be best suited for ducking his head low and putting his head ahead of his lead leg. This style requires quite a bit of conditioning, and probably a bit more speed and explosiveness than what Cotto possesses.

    However, the upright, more balanced and technical approach under Steward's tutelage is the least of all strategic and stylistic choices. While Steward did good to improve Cotto's balance and try better implement use of Cotto's left jab, I don't think Cotto can be patient and up-right trying to control the centre with his jab and boxing, rather than with a pressure and aggressive oriented approach. I also think Cotto's been a bit overrated at this weight, personally.

    Diaz seems to planning a strategy based on movement, angles, countering, mixed with aggression and unpredictability. Ultimately, I think a strategy rooted mainly in box-move tactics is mistake. While Cotto is more polished, and contains more dimensions than Ortiz or Mosley. I strongly believe he lacks the dimensions and attributes (Speed, reach, etc) to even pull of such a strategy. Cotto may have dimensions to his game, but Floyd's timing, reach, and speed are all far too good which would ultimately nullify Cotto's skills and ability to pursue such a strategy. Morales if he did do what he did in sparring might have had the tools to do so; tools I don't think Cotto actually posses. Besides, that might have been another Mayweather altogether.

    I do think a pressure-based strategy is the best strategy. This is why I believe a younger Cotto's youthfulness and vitality would be far more suited for Mayweather, as would Ortiz if he had the mentality to hold it together. I do not believe I am underrateing Cotto's dimensions to his fight, nor do I feel I am underrating Mayweather's in-fighting. Mayweather is a defensively-oriented fighter at heart. He's a defensively-conscious fighter. He's a very capable in-fighter, but his whole style is rooted in defense. If anything, he's overly defensive (Even the come-forward more aggressive Floyd shows this weakness when he can be pressured. Ortiz with Mayweather on the ropes, etc). His wide, defensive-oriented stance does not allow for Mayweather to do his best damage or get the most leverage the way Cotto can and does in his way of fighting. This is why getting on the inside is the most viable strategy. See... to me it's not a case of having the skills to match Floyd. Skills and timing are obviously important, but the attributes and physicality are far more suited to challenge Mayweather than any boxing based skills Cotto may possess. That is why Castillo, Ortiz, and Oscar all had the capability of having success. Yes, Ortiz did not have great success but it was competitive when he fought correct. Boxing-moving was stupid but even then he did not have no success because of his activity and speed.

    The point is physicality, a strong jab, and pressure are the best tactics. Even from a fighter like Oscar who has all the tools and dimensions and more that Cotto posses. Even he took the aggressive rooted approach.
     
  14. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Feinting is a key, but not to counter or beat Mayweather from the center, but to feint and push Floyd back.
     
  15. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    It comes to a risk-reward benefit. That position leaves Cotto at more of a defensive disadvantage, particularly to the uppercut. But it gives Cotto more of an advantage for offensive opportunities. Since Floyd has more of a tendency to fire when he wants to fire, and catch punches and play defensive when he senses his opponent coming on this can allow for Cotto to try and out-work Floyd. Cotto just has to be very defensively aware and careful when Floyd is looking to set up punches, and definitely not to get into a passive, feint, box, and chess match exchange. Cotto has to try being one step ahead and dictate the fight and the initiative. Feint, jab, push Floyd back, etc. The jab is a good punch to land and also a tool to set up the rest of his offense. Really does not have to hit clean as long as it gets Floyd in the position Cotto wants to. Cotto could jab at Floyd's chest as long as it knocks him off balance and help keeps him fighting his fight. That is not to say this rules out any spontaneity for Cotto move and set up shots when he feels appropriate.

    A more traditional crouch is more defensively rooted in stance, and more defensively preserving, however it limits the opportunity Cotto has to control the ring (Where he wants to set or position the fight to be), and therefore limits his offensive potential (But it could vitaliy reduce the punishment he could take). With the attributes and tool-set Cotto has this might be the best strategy to implement. Although since Cotto is the inferior fighter it might end up him losing competitively, but losing. Cotto might actually have to be willing to take more risk if he wants to actually win.