My timeline of the premiere LHW in the world.

lufcrazy · Oct 29, 2011

Jack Root: (april)1903-(july)1903 [loses to gardner]
George Gardner: (july)1903-(november)1903 [loses to fitzsimmons]
Bob Fitzsimmons: (november)1903-(december)1905 [loses to o'brien]
Jack O'Brien: (december)1905-(may)1907 [loses to burns]
Tommy Burns: (may)1907-(march)1908 [retires his claim whilst o'brien beats bonner]

Jack O'Brien: (may)1908-(june)1909 [loses to ketchel]
Stanley Ketchel: (june)1909-(april)1910 [loses to langford]
Sam Langford: (april)1910-(october)1911 [retires his claim whilst dillon beats levinsky]

Jack Dillon: (october)1911-(june)1915 [loses to mcmahon]
Tom McMahon: (june)1915-(september)1915 [loses to dillon]
Jack Dillon: (september)1915-(january)1916 [loses to miske]
Billy Miske: (january)1916-(april)1916 [loses to dillon]
Jack Dillon: (april)1916-(july)1916 [loses to levinsky]
Battling Levinsky: (july)1916-(march)1917 [loses to gibbons]
Tommy Gibbons: (march)1917-(july)1920 [loses to greb]
Harry Greb: (july)1920-(december)1923 [loses to tunney]
Gene Tunney: (december)1923-(may)1925 [retires his claim whilst berlenbach beats mctigue]

Paul Berlenbach: (may)1925-(july)1926 [loses to delaney]
Jack Delaney: (july)1926-(october)1927 [retires claim whilst loughran beats mctigue]

Tommy Loughran: october)1927-(november)1929 [retires claim whilst slattery beats rosenbloom]

Jimmy Slattery: (november)1929-(june)1930 [loses to rosenbloom]
Maxie Rosenbloom: (june)1930-(february)1931 [loses claim when scozza beats shucco]

Lou Scozza: (feburary)1931-(november)1931 [loses to maier]
Dave Maier: (november)1931-(march)1932 [loses to nichols]
George Nichols: (march)1932-(may)1932 [loses to scozza]
Lou Scozza: (may)1932-(july)1932 [loses to rosenbloom]
Maxie Rosenbloom: (july)1932-(july)1933 [loses to lewis]
John Lewis: (july)1933 (jan)1939 [retires his calim whilst conn beats apostoli]

Billy Conn: (jan)1939-(may)1941 [retires his claim whilst lesnevich beats christoforidis]

Gus Lesnevich: (may)1941-(march)1942 [loses to bivins]
Jimmy Bivins: (march)1942-(jan)1944 [retires claim whilst marshall beats bolden]

Lloyd Marshall: (jan)1944-(may)1945 [loses to moore]
Archie Moore: (may)1945-(october)1945 [loses to williams]
Holman Williams: (october)1945-(november)1945 [loses to moore]
Archie Moore: (november)1945-(may)1946 [loses to charles]
Ezzard Charles: (may)1946-(may)1949 [retires claim whilst maxim beats lesnevich]

Joey Maxim: (may)1949-(december)1952 [loses to moore]
Archie Moore: (december)1952-(may)1962 [retires claim whilst johnson beats jones]

Harold Johnson: (may)1962-(june)1963 [loses to pastrano]
Willie Pastrano: (june)1963-(march)1965 [loses to torres]
Jose Torres: (march)1965-(december)1966 [loses to tiger]
Dick Tiger: (december)1966-(may)1968 [loses to foster]
Bob Foster: (may)1968-(october)1974 [retires claim whilst conteh beats ahumada]

John Conteh: (october)1974-(may)1976 [loses claim when galindez beats kates]

Victor Galindez: (may)1976-(september)1978 [loses to rossman]
Mike Rossman: (september)1978-(april)1979 [loses claim when saad beats johnson]

Matthew Saad: (april)1979-(december)1981 [loses to qawi]
Dwight Qawi: (december)1981-(march)1983 [loses to spinks]
Spinksmarch)1983-(february)1986 [retires claim whilst johnson beats stewart]

Marvin Johnson: (february)1986-(may)1987 [loses to stewart]
Leslie Stewart: (may)1987-(september)1987 [loses to hill]
Virgil Hill: (september)1987-(june)1991 [loses to hearns]
Tommy Hearns: (june)1991-(march)1992 [loses to barkley]
Iran Barkley: (march)1992-(march)1993 [loses his claim when maske beats williams]

Henry Maske: (march)1993-(november)1996 [loses to hill]
Virgil Hill: (november)1996-(june)1997 [loses to michalczewski]
Dariusz Michalczewski: (june)1997-(june)1999 [loses claim when jones beats johnson]

Roy Jones: (june)1999-(may)2004 [loses to tarver]
Antonio Tarver: (may)2004-(july)2006 [loses to hopkins]
Bernard Hopkins: (july)2006-(november)2009 [loses claim when dawson beats johnson]

Chad Dawson: (november)2009-(august)2010 [loses to pascal]
Pascal: (august)2010-(december)2010 [loses to hopkins]
Hopkins: (december)2010-present [premiere lhw]

lufcrazy · Oct 29, 2011

What started as a quick question led to me devoting my whole day to the division so I just got on with it decade by decade until I hit present times

atsch

janitor · Oct 29, 2011

You could make a case for Burns holding it at some point.

Possibly McCoy as well.

burt bienstock · Oct 29, 2011

lufcrazy said: ↑

Just edited the title because even the next decade is a mess in terms of lineage.

Again I'd say the lineage is worthless during this next ten years and here's how I'd award the championship

Levinsky beats Dillon in 1916 to take his claim so that's where I'll begin

1916-1917: Levinsky
1917-1920: Gibbons
1920-1923: Greb
1923-1925: Tunney
1925-1926: Berlenbach

During this time frame I don't think the "linear" champ was ever the top man in the division apart from the first and last years.

Levinsky, shortly after beating Dillon, lost to Miske (above the limit) before then losing "handily" to the unbeaten Gibbons. Gibbons then went on a fantstic unbeaten run right up until 1920 when he lost to Greb. Greb's reign here is a bit contentious because officially he lost to both Tunney and Loughran during this timeframe, however upon scrutiny both losses seem quite contentious to me with it seeming at worst Greb deserves a draw in both bouts. However later in 1923 Tunney then gives Greb quite a beating to take his claim and he keeps that claim right up until he challenges Dempsey in 1925. Now in 1925 Berlenbach defeats McTigue (the paper champion) and has the best claim as being top dog because he genuinely beat some top names in the division right up until 1926 when he did lose to Delaney.

Now I'm not saying my take on things is any better than the traditional lineage that took place, but there's quite a few discrepancies imo and some of the claims of the lineal champs are just ludicrous imo.
Click to expand...

Luf in 1925-26 You have Paul Berlenbach,as the top LH, but the best LH of that era was the great Jack Delaney,one of the most underated LHs of alltime ,
who once kod the esteemed Tiger Flowers 3 times in two bouts...Delaney could do it all...

lufcrazy · Oct 29, 2011

burt bienstock said: ↑

Luf in 1925-26 You have Paul Berlenbach,as the top LH, but the best LH of that era was the great Jack Delaney,one of the most underated LHs of alltime ,
who once kod the esteemed Tiger Flowers 3 times in two bouts...Delaney could do it all...
Click to expand...

B, in 1925 Paul defeated Siki, Delaney, McTigue, and Slattery. surely you agree that is the most successful run in the division that year?

Delaney gets his props when he secures victory in the rematch.

Cheers :hi:

Boilermaker · Oct 29, 2011

lufcrazy said: ↑

I think this division has one of the worst "traditional lineages" going.

For me, if I was a sanctioning body I'd have it a little something like this

Root: 1903
Gardner: 1903
Fitzsimmons: 1903-1905
O'Brien: 1905-1909
Ketchel: 1909-1910
Langford: 1910-1912
Dillon: 1912-1916
Levinsky: 1916-1917
Gibbons: 1917-1920
Greb: 1920-1923
Tunney: 1923-1925
Berlenbach: 1925-1926
Delaney: 1926-1927
Loughran: 1927-1929
Rosenbloom: 1929-1934
Olin: 1934-1935
Lewis: 1935-1939
Conn: 1939-1941
Lesnevich: 1941-1942
Bivins: 1942-1944
Marshall: 1944-1945
Moore: 1945-1946
Charles: 1946-1949
Maxim: 1949-1952
Moore: 1952-1962
Johnson: 1962-1963
Pastrano: 1963-1965
Torres: 1965-1966
Tiger: 1966-1968
Foster: 1968-1974
Conteh: 1974-1976
Galindez: 1976-1978
Rossman: 1978-1979
Saad: 1979-1981
Qawi: 1981-1983
Spinks:1983-1985
Czyz: 1985-1987
Williams: 1987-1989
Hill: 1989-1991
Hearns: 1991
Harding: 1991-1992
Hill: 1992-1994
Maske: 1994-1996
Hill: 1996-1997
Michalczewski: 1997-1998
Jones: 1998-2004
Tarver: 2004-2006
Hopkins: 2006-2008
Dawson: 2008-2010
Pascal: 2010
Hopkins: 2010-present

I think the way the division starter is perfectly fine with my first discrepancy coming after Ruby's reign had ended.

O'Brien smashed ruby in the rematch to claim the world championship. he was then essentially knocked out by Ketchel in a fight just above the MW limit, he was again knocked out later that year. Langford beat both O'Brien and Ketchel but spent most of his time beating up HW's during this timeframe, however these two victories seem to be better than anything else anyone else did in the timeframe (a rematch with Ketchel might even have been for the vacant LHW championship). Langford focused on the bigger division and it seems from there it's all Jack Dillon (a terribly under appreciated fighter today) who aside from a couple of MW losses to Klaus seemed to be the obvious choice as he was the main force at the weight for the next 5 years.

Levinsky, shortly after beating Dillon, lost to Miske (above the limit) before then losing "handily" to the unbeaten Gibbons. Gibbons then went on a fantstic unbeaten run right up until 1920 when he lost to Greb. Greb's reign here is a bit contentious because officially he lost to both Tunney and Loughran during this timeframe, however upon scrutiny both losses seem quite contentious to me with it seeming at worst Greb deserves a draw in both bouts. However later in 1923 Tunney then gives Greb quite a beating to take his claim and he keeps that claim right up until he challenges Dempsey in 1925. Now in 1925 Berlenbach defeats McTigue (the paper champion) and has the best claim as being top dog because he genuinely beat some top names in the division right up until 1926 when he did lose to Delaney.

For the next 15 years the lineage is pretty solid but then when it comes to lesnevich it goes tits up again. Bivins beats gus and has a really good couple of years as a dominant force before moving up. In his place former foe Marshall steps up to the plate with a great run for 2 yearsbefore losing back to back matches against archie. the next 4 years are ruled by charles up until he moves up to get a title shot against walcott.

The lineage again becomes clear up until Foster's retirement. Conteh performed beautifully to capture everyone's attention but I thi9nk his opposition level wained whilt Galindez's grew and grew until his claim seemd more solid. From 79 till 86 the lineage seems fairly obvious but again the unified champ retires his belt.

In Spinks absence the division remained fractured but I think Czyz started strongest and prince took his claim with him. However Hill was increasing in dominance and became the premiere force until his loss to ATG tommy hearns. The division became a bit of a mess again with Harding seemingly the only decent LHW around until again hill's consistency saw him take top spot.

One of the more famous discrepancies starts soon enough; DM unifies 3 belts but is promptly stripped, after beating hill, until the turn of the century dm's opposition was poor whereas jones unified the vacant belts to usurp his claim in the eyes of everyone until losing to tarver who remained king (robbed against Johnson) until Hopkins great victory over him.

Hopkins was the consistent force at the top until his Pavick fight when he took an unexpected break and was left on the back burner. In the meantime Dawson scored defeats over Adamek, Johnson and Tarver to rise to the top. Pascal ended Dawson's reign but then was defeated by Hopkins.

At present the division is again a mess with the world waiting on a decision to be overturned. There almost certainly won't be a rematch so we'll have to see how things pan out.

Now I'm not saying my take on things is any better than the traditional lineage that took place, but there's quite a few discrepancies imo and some of the claims of the lineal champs are just ludicrous imo
Click to expand...

Fitzsimmons deserves recognition from about 1891, which makes him the clear all time standout.

Tommy Burns is also a must from about 1906 to 1908 and maybe 1910 depending on how you ciew inactivity

lufcrazy · Oct 29, 2011

Boilermaker said: ↑

Fitzsimmons deserves recognition from about 1891, which makes him the clear all time standout.

Tommy Burns is also a must from about 1906 to 1908 and maybe 1910 depending on how you ciew inactivity
Click to expand...

Well the division didn't exist that far back, and back then Fitz was a middlewieight fighting middleweights anyways.

He did beat Maher in 92 which could be considered a LHW fight, something his resume will reflect, as well as choynski in 94 but without the division existing prior to root's manager mandating a title fight, I have difficulty declaring anyone a champion in the division.

From 1906-1908 Burns fought exclusively in the HW division so again I'd have difficulty calling him the best LHW.

Boilermaker · Oct 29, 2011

lufcrazy said: ↑

Well the division didn't exist that far back, and back then Fitz was a middlewieight fighting middleweights anyways.

He did beat Maher in 92 which could be considered a LHW fight, something his resume will reflect, as well as choynski in 94 but without the division existing prior to root's manager mandating a title fight, I have difficulty declaring anyone a champion in the division.

From 1906-1908 Burns fought exclusively in the HW division so again I'd have difficulty calling him the best LHW.
Click to expand...

Rooot was never better than Fitz, ever.

Fitz beat as many light heavys and heavys as middles in the early part of his career

burt bienstock · Oct 29, 2011

lufcrazy said: ↑

I think this division has one of the worst "traditional lineages" going.

For me, if I was a sanctioning body I'd have it a little something like this

Root: 1903
Gardner: 1903
Fitzsimmons: 1903-1905
O'Brien: 1905-1909
Ketchel: 1909-1910
Langford: 1910-1912
Dillon: 1912-1916
Levinsky: 1916-1917
Gibbons: 1917-1920
Greb: 1920-1923
Tunney: 1923-1925
Berlenbach: 1925-1926
Delaney: 1926-1927
Loughran: 1927-1929
Rosenbloom: 1929-1934
Olin: 1934-1935
Lewis: 1935-1939
Conn: 1939-1941
Lesnevich: 1941-1942
Bivins: 1942-1944
Marshall: 1944-1945
Moore: 1945-1946
Charles: 1946-1949
Maxim: 1949-1952
Moore: 1952-1962
Johnson: 1962-1963
Pastrano: 1963-1965
Torres: 1965-1966
Tiger: 1966-1968
Foster: 1968-1974
Conteh: 1974-1976
Galindez: 1976-1978
Rossman: 1978-1979
Saad: 1979-1981
Qawi: 1981-1983
Spinks:1983-1985
Czyz: 1985-1987
Williams: 1987-1989
Hill: 1989-1991
Hearns: 1991
Harding: 1991-1992
Hill: 1992-1994
Maske: 1994-1996
Hill: 1996-1997
Michalczewski: 1997-1998
Jones: 1998-2004
Tarver: 2004-2006
Hopkins: 2006-2008
Dawson: 2008-2010
Pascal: 2010
Hopkins: 2010-present

I think the way the division starter is perfectly fine with my first discrepancy coming after Ruby's reign had ended.

O'Brien smashed ruby in the rematch to claim the world championship. he was then essentially knocked out by Ketchel in a fight just above the MW limit, he was again knocked out later that year. Langford beat both O'Brien and Ketchel but spent most of his time beating up HW's during this timeframe, however these two victories seem to be better than anything else anyone else did in the timeframe (a rematch with Ketchel might even have been for the vacant LHW championship). Langford focused on the bigger division and it seems from there it's all Jack Dillon (a terribly under appreciated fighter today) who aside from a couple of MW losses to Klaus seemed to be the obvious choice as he was the main force at the weight for the next 5 years.

Levinsky, shortly after beating Dillon, lost to Miske (above the limit) before then losing "handily" to the unbeaten Gibbons. Gibbons then went on a fantstic unbeaten run right up until 1920 when he lost to Greb. Greb's reign here is a bit contentious because officially he lost to both Tunney and Loughran during this timeframe, however upon scrutiny both losses seem quite contentious to me with it seeming at worst Greb deserves a draw in both bouts. However later in 1923 Tunney then gives Greb quite a beating to take his claim and he keeps that claim right up until he challenges Dempsey in 1925. Now in 1925 Berlenbach defeats McTigue (the paper champion) and has the best claim as being top dog because he genuinely beat some top names in the division right up until 1926 when he did lose to Delaney.

For the next 15 years the lineage is pretty solid but then when it comes to lesnevich it goes tits up again. Bivins beats gus and has a really good couple of years as a dominant force before moving up. In his place former foe Marshall steps up to the plate with a great run for 2 yearsbefore losing back to back matches against archie. the next 4 years are ruled by charles up until he moves up to get a title shot against walcott.

The lineage again becomes clear up until Foster's retirement. Conteh performed beautifully to capture everyone's attention but I thi9nk his opposition level wained whilt Galindez's grew and grew until his claim seemd more solid. From 79 till 86 the lineage seems fairly obvious but again the unified champ retires his belt.

In Spinks absence the division remained fractured but I think Czyz started strongest and prince took his claim with him. However Hill was increasing in dominance and became the premiere force until his loss to ATG tommy hearns. The division became a bit of a mess again with Harding seemingly the only decent LHW around until again hill's consistency saw him take top spot.

One of the more famous discrepancies starts soon enough; DM unifies 3 belts but is promptly stripped, after beating hill, until the turn of the century dm's opposition was poor whereas jones unified the vacant belts to usurp his claim in the eyes of everyone until losing to tarver who remained king (robbed against Johnson) until Hopkins great victory over him.

Hopkins was the consistent force at the top until his Pavick fight when he took an unexpected break and was left on the back burner. In the meantime Dawson scored defeats over Adamek, Johnson and Tarver to rise to the top. Pascal ended Dawson's reign but then was defeated by Hopkins.

At present the division is again a mess with the world waiting on a decision to be overturned. There almost certainly won't be a rematch so we'll have to see how things pan out.

Now I'm not saying my take on things is any better than the traditional lineage that took place, but there's quite a few discrepancies imo and some of the claims of the lineal champs are just ludicrous imo
Click to expand...

Luf, good post, but Langford Didn't beat Stanley Ketchel in their 6 rd bout in 1910. Mixed views about that bout, but it must be noticed that Langford was about FOURTEEN pounds heavier than Ketchel in that bout and Ketchel was way on the downside,and probably on opium by this point in time...
He had 1 more bout and was on the verge of a "breakdown" and went to recover on his friends ranch in Conway, Miss. where he was shot to death...:hi:

lufcrazy · Oct 30, 2011

Boilermaker said: ↑

Rooot was never better than Fitz, ever.

Fitz beat as many light heavys and heavys as middles in the early part of his career
Click to expand...

The division didn't exist until 1903.

Fitz's first fight in the division was against gardner which is when i've credited him from.

Boilermaker · Oct 30, 2011

lufcrazy said: ↑

The division didn't exist until 1903.

Fitz's first fight in the division was against gardner which is when i've credited him from.
Click to expand...

But i thought you were crediting the best light heavy of the time, not the officially recognised one. If this is tje case then surely noone was better than fitz just becaise they were given a lesser belt.

also, another ommisssion i just thought of was Mickey Walker. Surely there was a time when he was the best flight heavy in the world, It is interesting to try to compare fighteres who fought at the higher weights, and also those who may have fought slightly under the best weight.

no matterwhich method you use, you have to admit that fitz' longevity at this weight is absolutely unsurpassed, making easily the most underated light heavy ever.

GPater11093 · Oct 30, 2011

I think you could make a solid case Lesnevich was never the best LHW around.

Squire · Oct 30, 2011

Which year did Calzaghe fight Hopkins? Wasn't he the lineal champ going into the RJJ fight?

lufcrazy · Oct 30, 2011

Boilermaker said: ↑

But i thought you were crediting the best light heavy of the time, not the officially recognised one. If this is tje case then surely noone was better than fitz just becaise they were given a lesser belt.

also, another ommisssion i just thought of was Mickey Walker. Surely there was a time when he was the best flight heavy in the world, It is interesting to try to compare fighteres who fought at the higher weights, and also those who may have fought slightly under the best weight.

no matterwhich method you use, you have to admit that fitz' longevity at this weight is absolutely unsurpassed, making easily the most underated light heavy ever.
Click to expand...

I am, but with fitz it just has to be accepted he came before the division. Otherwise you could argue he's one of the greatest mw, smw, lhw and cw of all time. In reality most of the divisions came beyond him.

Regarding the best in the division from it's inception, root was a clear choice because he was the only active successful lhw until losing to godfrey. Fitz was campaigning exclusively as a hw during this period until he dropped to fight godfrey when he actually proved his dominance at the weight. Similar case for why burns doesn't get credited as a lhw now.

To put into context with today it's like calling martinez the best lmw in the world despite him campaigning exclusively at mw.

I have the same problem with people counting armstrong's ww fights as lw fights also.

I don't care about the lineal title as should be apparent.

Walker was one I had to consider in detail and I think sometimes he came very close but i'm not convince he ever quite made it to the top.

lufcrazy · Oct 30, 2011

GPater11093 said: ↑

I think you could make a solid case Lesnevich was never the best LHW around.
Click to expand...

I could only find a 1 year period where he had any claim to being the best.

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