My top 10 Heavyweight list

Anyway, it's your thread, John Sorry if my few remarks did take away from the main point. I just didn't see a whole lot to argue with.

 

I think this is a pretty reasonable list, except that you ignore everyone pre-1930. Jeffries, Johnson and Dempsey are all strong candidates for top 10 placement, and I would surely expect at least one of them to make the cut.

Out of the fighters you included, these are the points on which I would somewhat strongly disagree with your ordering:

I think Lewis is too high. A great champion, yes, but when you line him up objectively against Ali, Louis, Holmes and Marciano, I think you should see that his accomplishments aren't really on par with theirs, and his prime losses are much worse. I really don't think Lewis should outrank Holmes and Marciano.

Second, I think Foreman is considerably too low. Though his resume may be somewhat "thin" (I would also count Lyle as a "meaningful" win, personally), the top-level victories are extremely impressive, better than virtually anyone else's on the list. Moreover, his comeback run and becoming the oldest man ever to win the heavyweight championship, regaining it over 20 years after he won it the first time, is an extremely special accomplishment, in the same vein as Louis' 25 title defenses or Marciano's 49-0 championship career, in my opinion. I think Foreman is a top 5 all-timer.

I also think Frazier belongs firmly ahead of Tyson (better wins, better losses, better career, period), and probably Holyfield and Lewis, as well.

 

The guy that created the original list is a kangaroo dude (the one at the beginning of the thread, not Zak's) Just thought I'd point that out. Lewis isn't from Australia either.

I rate Lewis at #10. Maybe he should be a little higher, but he did get starched by a couple of guys rather easily (primarily through lack of preparation and, perhaps, arrogance), even though these were avenged.

Regarding Marciano, very few rate him in their top 5, just do a little research on the subject. While I happen to agree with the top 5 rating in the original thread list, and my own top 3, these are a little higher than you'll see for Marciano on most lists. :good

 

No, actually, Marciano is pretty widely top-fived ranked among the boxing public. The IBRO ranks him #5, and he always came out in the top 5 when "ESB top 10 heavyweight" polls that accumulated members' lists on a points system used to be held around here.

 

Why I included parenthetical entries

They help to define the thrust of a point, without being the points main subject. :nut

 

I could probably list at least 10 times as many sources that don't rank him as high. The point is really unimportant to me though... I rate RM in the top 3. There are many that don't at HW, however. Little question of that.

 

Which ones? The IBRO is the biggest organization of boxing historians around and has him in the top 5 after polling. The RING Magazine staff has had him in the top 5 for most of the last 30 years or so. The AP poll at the end of the 20th century had Marciano in the top 5. ESPN has him in the top 5 (though their lists are painfully bad). Most fans have him in the top 5. I think your impression here is more due to the way people with lower opinions of Marciano stick out more (and are often outspoken about it). Marciano is generally regarded as one of the top 5 of all time by the boxing public.

 

That first part could be it. I know a guy sent me a list a while back as to his rating amongst some experts - although the 10 times more may be a stretch on my part, I'll need to locate the list.

I would like to point out that I rank Marciano very high - but I'll find the list of others who don't.

Don Sibrel
1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Liston
4.Foreman
5.Tyson
6.Tunney
7.Dempsey
8.Johnson
9.Marciano
10.Frazier
11.Holmes
12.Jeffries
13.Walcott
14.Corbett
15.Patterson
16.Charles
17.Schmeling
18.Holyfield

Monte D. Cox's Corner All Time Heavyweight Ratings
THE TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME
1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. George Foreman
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Sonny Liston
8. Jim Jeffries
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Mike Tyson
11. Rocky Marciano
12. Joe Frazier
13. Riddick Bowe
14. Evander Holyfield
15. Sam Langford
16. Gene Tunney
17. James J. Corbett
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Jersey Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling

Bert Sugar, 1991
1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson

Arthur Harris, 1992 (Nov 1992 Boxing Scene)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Larry Holmes
8.Jersey Joe Walcott
9.Joe Frazier
10.Sonny Liston

Nigel Collins, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Evander Holyfield
4.Larry Holmes
5.George Foreman
6.Jack Johnson
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Joe Frazier
9.Jack Dempsey
10.Sonny Liston

Herbert Goldman, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Sonny Liston
4.Mike Tyson
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Johnson
7.Jack Dempsey
8.George Foreman
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Joe Frazier

Tracy Callis
Heavyweights:

1.Jim Jeffries
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Gene Tunney
7.Jim Corbett
8.Sonny Liston
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Larry Holmes

Manny Steward
1- Muhammad Ali
2- Joe Louis
3- Larry Holmes
4- George Foreman
5- Lennox Lewis
6- Gene Tunney
7- Jack Johnson
8- Rocky Marciano
9- Sonny Liston
10- Mike Tyson

Jimmy Gloves
1. Ali
2. Jack Johnson
3. Holmes
4. Joe Louis
5. Jim Jeffries
6. Tyson
7. Bowe
8. Frazier
9. Langford
10. Liston

 

Obviously it's very unlikely anyone is going to have the exact same list, but my major objections to your list would be Lennox Lewis being much too high, and the absence of Jack Johnson. A genuine heavyweight with a remarkable resume if you make an attempt to learn more about it.

Mine looks something like this,
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Tyson
5. Johnson
6. Foreman
7. Holmes
8. Liston
9. Lewis
10. Frazier

At glance it appears Tyson is too high, but I'd be more than happy to justify my placement. Expressed succinctly from 1986-1990 he experienced the most dominant four year period in heavyweight history. He either stopped or won lopsided decisions against every competitor available.

 

Did the guy beat anybody that great though?

 

Lets be fair, you can only beat the fighters available to you, right?

In any case, I don't think the late 80's was a particularly weak era. Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, were very good victories.

But if there's one thing for certain it's that ESB doesn't agree upon the strength of any heavyweight era. Some call the 70's pissweak, and the 30's as strong as ever, so you have to try and be as objective as possible.