My top 10 Heavyweight list

From Louis to persent, this is how I would presnet the top 10:

Ali
Holmes
Lewis
Louis
Liston
Foreman
Marciano
Bowe
Holyfeild
Tyson

Bowe might get some groans as #8, but he cleaned Holyfield clock twice. Holyfield got the better of Tyson, so this is how I place them. Looking back, Bowe has a better win vs an all time great in his prime than most people on this list.

If you want Demspey in the list, place him below Foreman, and bump Tyson off.

I don't think Vitlai did enough to rate in the top 10 from 1937-2008, but he sure could beat anyone on the list. Wlad legacy is still not set yet. If he unifies, and keeps winning via dominating fashion, he could angle up into the top ten. I don't see it, but is best to wait and see.

 

Frazier has one great win over Ali. It was a stylistic advantage for Frazier, and he caught Ali pre-exhile, but Ali still won the series 2-1 and scored the lone stoppage. I beleive most all time great would likely win one of three vs Ali from 1971-1975. Frazier did not beat the prime ALi from 1964-1967, and that Ali was much faster, and had better stamina, which are things you need when your a boxer type vs Frazier.

A few days ago I asked for refrences when the swarmer beat the better puncher at heavyweight. It is rare. Just about everyone on your list can hit, and Frazier's chin is likely one of the worst on this list. This should give you insight as to why I think Frazier is not in my top ten.

Holmes was 48-0 at one point, and was not upset like Tyson was. Holmes proved he could get off the floor and win, and his wins as a sum in my opnion are better than Tyson's. Stopping Holmes or outboxing him is no easy task, and the man could fight hard for 15 rounds. With Tyson, he did not beat anyone great, never came off the deck or back to win a fight, and was prone to DQ himself or give up when things did not go his way.

I don't like Bowe where he is, but I do beleive he belongs. He only lost once via razor thin and crotnaverial circumstances to another all time great. Bowe was a big man with skills, punch variety, and good stamina when he was in shape.

I disagree. Vitali COULD beat anyone on the list.

Is Vitlai's body of work much weaker than Liston's? You give Liston the benefit of the doubt in his losses vs Ali but what about his other losses, one of which was vs a good jouneyman ( Marshall ), the other a burtal KO loss ( Martin ). Liston was a beast, but he had some charcter issues in him, wasn't fast, and fought a collection of guys made to order for him. I think Vitlai rolls the same people Liston did, and doesn't lose to Marshall at all. I see you give Sonny the benefit of the doubt but not Vitali, who lost due to a cut vs an all time great you rate highly ( and was up 4-2 on all three cards ) and a confirmed injury vs another alpahbet champion when he was up by an even greater margin on all three cards. Vitlai was never down, and never behind on the cards in any fight after round three. If your reasons for rating Sonny high are domiance, then Vitlai should be viewed in the same vein. That is if you want to cast bais and rooting interst asside.

 

I have the same names, but in a slightly different order-

1. Muhammad Ali

2. Joe Louis

3. Lennox Lewis

4. Larry Holmes

5. Joe Frazier

6. Rocky Marciano

7. George Foreman

8. Evander Holyfield

9. Mike Tyson

10. Sonny Liston


Then-

11. Jack Dempsey

12. Jack Johnson

13. Riddick Bowe

14. Jersey Joe Walcott

15. Floyd Patterson


My most recent change was to put Ali ahead of Louis, because while I feel they are about even head-to-head, I'm not impressed enough by Louis's opposition to give him a lead since my rankings are based both on head-to-head and achievements. Riddick Bowe has also climbed up a fair bit as of late.

 

I'm a little bit surprised everyone seems to rank Lennox Lewis in the top 4 these days.

 

ehat better pre title competition? Langford, Jeannette and McVea were no where near their best when Jack beat them. On the other hand pre title Dempsey beat quiet a few top contenders who were in their primes. Johnson was more active as champion but he gave shots to quiet a few average fighters where as everyone who fought Dempsey as champion was atleast considered a decent contender. Dempsey also avenged his only ko loss, something Johnson did not do

 

!

 

I decided to let my list be determined 75% by accomplishments (my interpretation of them) and 25% a subjective H2H criteria. To put it simply I rate Liston very highly head to head, I think at the peak of his powers he is top3. He's a powerful, intimidating, athletic and a tremendously skilled boxer. I don't hold one (or two) losses against the best heavyweight ever at the height of his powers against him too much.

I like the way he defeated the worlds best heavyweight in one round - And then did it again. I liked the way he crushed his pretitle opposition. I have to admit, I am just a Liston fan. It's sad he involved himself with the mob, and left all these question marks over his true potential, and even his integrity.

Purely on accomplishments I would give Lewis the nod, just, but I believe the fact he was knocked out early twice, by fighters not neccessarily considered top tier heavyweights, while at the height of his abilities does show his vulnerabilities - Does he have the chin and heart of some of the other ATG heavyweights? I don't think so.

To be honest his wins against a fat, unmotivated Rahman and an emotionally unstable McCall do not really boost his resume a great deal as if he had ignored those losses and gone on to fight someone else, I'd still rank him around 9th.

I would like to have seen him fight Bowe, and I am aware of the trashcan incident. But Bowe was willing to fight him later on, and it never eventuated.

I also happened to score a victory for Mercer against Lewis, for what it's worth. Twice he left the Holyfield fights in the hands of the judges, when I feel he had what it took to stop him. (I scored them both for Lewis)

To be honest Lennox Lewis was just... Disappointing at times.

 

...... not to mention the fact that some of Johnson's title fights were so dreary that customers actually asked for their money back.

 

My first reply is my rankings are what I believe. I do not bow to popular opinions. My picks are more head to head / styles make fight then most. I generally think the modern fighters from 1960 to present are better than fighters from 1900-1959. I believe size ( height, weight, reach ) or extreme lack of size matters quite a bit in the heavyweight division. I look for skills, accomplishments which can be defined many ways, and look when and where most of the key fight happened, and how they went down.

I am not negative on Frazier. I like his work. I just see him struggling a bit too much in quite a few fights. Frazier had fits vs bigger guys, was limited in punch selection, had no plan B, an average chin, and was more of an attrition puncher than a bomber. If Frazier had fought and beaten Lyle, Shavers, or Norton I think his resume is better. The best two fighters Frazier fought are Ali and Foreman, and his record vs them is 1-4, with 3 stoppages looses. I don't think wins over Quarry, Bonavena ( I think the first fight is a draw on the 10 point must system ), Bugner, or Ellis is enough. Frazier is in my top 15.

Holmes record of 48-0 is even with Marciano's record of 49-0, maybe better because I think Holmes fought better/bigger/harder punching collection of fighters as a whole. If Lewis or Louis had a better chin, they would pass Holmes in my book, but like I said all time lists are loaded with punchers.

I do think beating Holyfield twice trumps beating Ali once. And Bowe lost far less than Frazier, and had less shaky moments in the ring. I don't have Bowe in my top ten using fighters from Sullivan to present, but from Joe Louis on, I do. Did Bowe have a close fight vs Tubbs? Sure, but he did win it on one of Tubbs better days. Like I said, I don't like Bowe in the top 10, but I think he belongs. Bomb outs of Seldon, and Hide by Bowe in my mind are more impressive than Frazier grinding down past their best Machen's and Ellis'.

What if the Lewis fight went on? What if he didn't have an injury vs Byrd or it was a high stake match where Vitlai had already earned his money and felt he had more to prove? I’ll tell you what, Vitlai wins one of these fights for sure, maybe the other. Outside of these two fights where Vitlai had less than 2 weeks to prepare for, he was more dominant in the ring on the score cards than any man in the history of the division, owns the all time KO%, was never floored by a punch, and oh yeah, his size alone present mundo problems to the smaller fighters on the list.

Liston is a guy that my opinion changes on the most. I don't think Vitlai career is much weaker than Liston's at all. Liston defended his title once, fought smaller guys, chinny guys, and outside of Patterson who I think Vitlai deposits in the corner, his resume is kind of thin.

I would. Williams matches up poorly vs Vitali. He isn't faster, more defensive, more durable, a better boxer, ect.... Vitlai has more than enough power to make Williams look like Johnson or Hide.

The loss to Marshall is part of Liston's record. So is taking guys like Whitehurts the distance, and fouling un-purpose in the few moments that Machen who also went the distance with him was doing well. I like Liston's technique, durability, defense, and power, a lot, but test his intangibles, and he's in trouble.

Which ones? It is possible some of the guys Vitlai beat could beat Liston too. Purrity had an Iron chins and would test Liston's patience. Liston might look slow vs Donald, and Liston never boxed a big guy who can move, except for ali and we know how that worked out. . It should be noted that Williams badly busted liston up in round one of their fights. Punchers that Vitlai beat like Sanders, Johnson, or Hide could do the same. I would pick Liston to beat all the guys Vitlai beat, but I would also pick Vitali to beat all the guys Liston beat. The kicker is Vitlai's competiton has more size/durability/ power, hence the punchers chance is more of a factor with Vitlai’s opponents. I also believe Vitlai does a heck of a lot better vs Ali than Liston did, but cast this off if you feel Liston took a dive twice.

There have been too many Lewis vs Vitali threads. Here's what we know. Vitlai was up on the all 3 cards 4-2. This means Lewis needs to win 4 of the next 6 to score a draw. Lewis was tired. Vitlai had a bad cut. None one knows for sure what happens in roudn 7. It was a cuts TKO, and there was no re-match to settle the questions of the first fight. Since I do not have Vitlai in my own top ten, the issue should end here. We are not arguing if Vitlai belongs in the top ten or not. However if you argue he can’t beat others in the top ten I disagree. I hope you have a clear understanding of the difference.

I have also complied a top 100 list that you have seen. I have never seen anyhting like it in terms of the amount of data that can be quickly be compared and contrasted with any one, two, or all top 100 fighters on the list.

 

Yeah, if Lewis hadn't battered Vitali's face off to score that TKO he might have scraped past with a draw.

For what it's worth, I think Spinks would have outpointed Tyson if not for the KO.