My top 10 Heavyweight list

My criteria for ranking fighters is simple;

I judge fighters on:

1. Thier Tenure as Champ
2. Quality of Opposition
3. Ability as a fighter

I personally have my top 10 list as follows:

1. Joe Louis - His reign was impressive, he was champ for about a decade with 25 title defenses. Hard to fault him for not having the marquee opponents, He did everything he was supposed to do given the circumstances. This is and my #2 is the only spots that for the time being will always remain the same.

2. Muhammad Ali - His secondary wins are impressive, his signature wins are unprecedented. Spectacular Champ. He had a few bumps in the road but he corrected All of those bumps when he was still relavant.

3. Rocky Marciano - His reign could have been longer, his opponents could have been better but he fought the best available and he didnt lose. Can't ask for anything more. He did what he was supposed to do as champion.

4. Jack Johnson - As the colored HW Champ he did his best work. As the HW Champion his reign was dismal but he did beat marquee fighters if you look at his overall body of work.

5. Larry Holmes - Champ for 7 years and 20 title defenses. Impressive feat by all accounts. His shortcomings include not giving rematches, Title shots or unifying the titles. In spite of that Larry was a proven Champion. His reign alone is what merits his standing his savvyness and ability to continue fighting effectively an an older age is impressive.

6. Jim Jeffries - What hurts him most is the fact that he didnt fight the best avaliable fighters out there. Politics aside its the same reason why people won't give RJJ the accolades. There were fights that should have been made but werent. Retired Unfeated. Returned only to lose the #4 man on this list.

7. George Foreman - His first career alone wouldnt get him in the top 10, his second career alone wouldnt get him in the top 20. But if you combine the 2 and you have a fighter who won the title 20 years apart. Unprecedented. Foreman's signature wins are also impressive (Frazier 2x, Norton, Moorer).

8. Mike Tyson - This is fighter who embodied the perfect specimen for a HW champion. Had the disadvantage of coming into an era of multiple belts. He cleaned out the division by beating the titlists (or champions as they like to be called) and their predecessors in dominant fashion. His reign though seemingly short consisted of 10 title fights in which is record was 9-1. After losing the title to unheralded fighter he picked up a few good wins. Went to Prision comes out and picks up a piece of the title again.

9. Lennox Lewis - Beat everyman he's faced. Was relevant for a long period of time but actually reigned from 1999-2003. His resume has the best names of his era and holds the distinction of retiring after beating his heir apparent.

10. Joe Frazier - Of the list he probably has one of the greatest single wins. Though not recognized as the official champion he did have a string of wins and cleared out his division before beating the undefeated Muhammad Ali.

Honorable Mention
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Jack Dempsey
13. Sonny Liston
14. Joe Walcott
15. Ezzard Charles.

 

He's overrated by many boxing fans. No other top HW was knocked out early twice by ordinary contenders. Top ten is arguable, top five is just way, way too high. Lewis wasn't even the best HW of his era, let alone top five all time.

 

No it wasn't.

Sonny's comparison to Tyson vs Spinks is hardly in congruency with Klitschko vs Lewis. Of course I acknowledge that Vitali lost the fight with no excuses, but he was beating Lewis handedly through 5 or 6 rounds. Spinks dropped without a heart beat against Tyson in 91 seconds. Klitschko was forced to quit due to a horrific cut, which had nothing to do with how he chose to fight nor his performance.

 

When compiling a list you have to base it more on achievement than a who would beat who kind of list. Styles make fights, and some fighters are more vulnerable against some types of fighters than others. For instance, look at Evander Holyfield. Holyfield has always had trouble with fighters that make him follow them. He is at his best when someone comes to him (Mike Tyson), or when he is able to move in and out on his opponent (2nd Riddick Bowe fight). Holyfield looked less than spectacular with Bobby Czyz, Vaughn Bean, James Toney,and Larry Donald. Age was a culprate in his fights with Toney and Donald, but I think that they would have given him trouble at anytime during his career. There are fighters that Holyfield has beaten that Donald wouldn't belong in the ring with, so Donald will not be making my all time list just because I think he could possibly beat a younger Holyfield too.

You also won't find Jack Dempsey on this list, because he never faced his number one contender, Harry Wills. I like Dempsey, and think he stood a good chance of defeating Wills. I realize that certain situations may have made that fight impossible to make, so I am not penalizing him for not fighting him. Nor can I reward him being that the fight never took place.

 

10. Mike Tyson

Tyson was the youngest heavyweight champion ever, and had the best blend of speed and power ever seen in a fighter. He came out a winner in twelve title bouts. Tyson had the ability to rank higher on this list, but lacked the discipline. He never bested another elite fighter (Larry Holmes was 37), but Trevor Berbick, James Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Larry Holmes, Tony Tubbs, and Frank Bruno were all world titlists at some point in their careers. The knock on Tyson is that he never really overcame adversity in his fights, but when you were as skilled as he was you don't come across adverse situations all that often.

9. Joe Frazier

Joe Frazier was armed with one the best left hooks in division history, was strong willed, and had the gas to burn. Frazier's most notable wins were against Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster, and Muhammad Ali. It is also important to notice he only lost to two men over the course of his career, both of which make this list.

8. George Foreman

It is tempting to think of Foreman as having two careers, as two different fighters, because of his ten year layoff from boxing in the middle of his career. Also because of his seeming personal tranformation. I don't really buy the make over. I am not saying he is a scam artist, or that he doesn't believe in his ministry. I am referring to the good guy, bad guy routine. I don't believe that Foreman was ever really a bad guy. I think he was perceived that way because of his strong will and savage strength. He brutalized his opponents in a way that it would seem only a thug be capable of. After his ten year retirement he came back near forty, bald, clean shaven, fat, forcing a smile, and perceived by many as a joke. Also perceived was a change of heart. It is hard paint a forty year old smiling fat man as a villian. George Foreman may now be famous for his smile, but he has never been a joke. Foreman posessed a sledge hammer jab, granite chin, dogged determination, and was probably the physically strongest heavyweight champion ever. Before losing his title to Muhammad Ali, he demolished Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. He was involved in one of the greatest heavyweight bouts ever when he knocked out Ron Lyle. He inspired millions when, Foreman age 42, unsuccessfully challenged 29 year old Evander Holyfield for the heavyweight championship. He later went on to become the oldest heavyweight champion in history, 45 years old, when he defeated Michael Moorer. Shannon Briggs found out that a 48 year old Foreman was stil a formidable foe, when he was pummeled and won a disputed decision over him in Foreman's final outing.

7. Evander Holyfield

Holyfield moved up from the cruiserweight division, where he was also champion, to excel in the heavyweight division like no other fighter moving up from below 200 lbs. has ever done. What he lacked in size, he more than made up for it with courage, determination, chin, and heart. He also had decent strength, a crisp punch, and above average speed. While his boxing skills were always apparent, he reinvented himself after losing his title to Riddick Bowe in 1992. He put on a masterful performance when he beat Bowe to regain his title a year later. He seemed to decline afterwards, losing a disputed decision to Michael Moore. He again rose to championship form, putting on a wonderful boxing display in stopping Mike Tyson, and another solid outing when he stopped Michael Moorer in their rematch. Other notable wins came against Michael Dokes, an aging George Foreman, an aging Larry Holmes, Ray Mercer, and Hasim Rahman.

6. Lennox Lewis

Lennox Lewis barely edges out Holyfield for this spot on the list. Lewis had his flaws, but did not seem overly confused by any style in particular. He had a size advantage over Holyfield. His competition was on par with Holyfield's. Not to mention a win over Holyfield, though I feel Holyfield had started his decline at that point. Lewis had a booming right hand, stiff jab, and has a victory over every fighter he has faced. With sixteen successful title defenses, spread over the course of two reigns, he ranks third amongst the heavyweight champions. He had a suspect chin, and was not always properly motivated for his fights; but only suffered two set backs in spite of these flaws. It would have been nice to have seen how he would have dealt with Riddick Bowe, but he was able to beat one man that had previously defeated Bowe(Holyfield) He also made short work of Andrew Golata. Golata had previously thrown two dominant performances over Riddick Bowe away due to fouls. Lewis also showed the ability to overcome adversity. He was in very close fight with Frank Bruno, and turned it on to stop him in the seventh. He was losing, in my opinion, to Vitali Klitschko; but seemed to be taking the fight over when that bout was stopped due to an awful gash near Klitschko's eye. Other than the aforementioned fighters, notable wins came against Razor Ruddock, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Shannon Briggs, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, and Mike Tyson.

 

5. Rocky Marciano

Marciano had one of the divisions best chins, bone jarring punch, and seemed able to keep coming no matter what.Rocky Marciano's record run of 49 straight wins is, as of this date, still a record. In fact, he never lost as a profesional. You might wonder how a fighter that never lost is not at the top of the list, but his level of competition is what stops him. For the most part, he faced the best he could. Joe Walcott was an excellent fighter, but was 38 years old for their first fight, and 39 in their second. Ezzard Charles may have been the finest light-heavyweight that ever lived, but the smaller man was into his 30's at the time of their fights. Archie Moore is another argument for best light-heavy ever, but was 38 year old out of his division as well. Marciano would probably rank 2 spots higher on this list if he had fought, and defeated (which was possible), Floyd Patterson. If he had faced, and defeated (doubtful), Sonny Liston; he would make an argument for the top spot.

4. Larry Holmes

Larry Holmes tends to be the most underated heavyweight in history. He ranks second in number of consecutive wins, which was 48. He ranks second with his title reign of over 7 years. He also ranks second with number of successful defenses with a more than impressive total of 20. His level of competition was not the best, but he managed to defeat 8 men that held world titles at some point in their careers. Holmes had one of the best jabs ever seen, was an accurate puncher, and was able to pick apart his opponent 69 of the 75 times one was place in front of him. Notable wins came against Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers, Ossie Ocasio, Mike Weaver, Muhammad Ali, Trevor Berbick, Leon Spinks, Gerry Cooney, Tim Witherspoon, James Smith, Carl Williams, and Ray Mercer. Holmes was age 42 when he beat undefeated, 30 year old, Ray Mercer.


3. Jack Johnson

You almost have to rank Jack Johnson highly just on the hell he went through to become champion. It was not easy being black in the early 1900's, and Johnson endured a double dose of hatred. Whites hated Johnson because he was black, and good. Some blacks hated him because he didn't act according to society's standards, and thought that his defiance of the racist majority brought a bad name to all black people. Johnson fought during a time that white fighters could duck black fighters by claiming that they did not believe in fighting people of another race. Johnson had to prove he was the best black heavyweight in the world long before he proved he was simply the best heavyweight. Notable wins came against Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Flynn, Tommy Burns, Al Kaufman, Stanly Ketchel, and Jim Jeffries.

2. Joe Louis

Louis may have had the best offensive arsenal in heavyweight history. His power was not that of someone like Mike Tyson, but he could definately hurt you with every punch he hit you with. The closest comparison I can think of at this writing is a heavyweight Julio Cesar Chavez. He has the longest title reign of anyone, over 12 years. He also has more consecutive title defenses than anyone with 26. Notable wins came against Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, James Braddock, Max Schmeling, John Henry Lewis, Billy Conn, and Joe Walcott.

1. Muhammad Ali

Ali may arguably be the most famous athelete ever, but that is not why he ranks at the top of this list. He had a top notch jab, exceptional speed, great chin, a will to win like no other; and he fought during the divisions most competive era. He has the most notable win column of this list with Henry Cooper, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, Zora Folley, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, and Ernie Shavers.

 

Thanks.

 

I think that this is one of the most well thought out lists that I've ever seen, very good job in that department.

My only complaint is Marciano being too high, obviously you take head to head into consideration, so all I'd do is drop him to where you have Frazier, then move Holyfield, Tyson, Foreman and Frazier up one and keep them in that order.

Then it's perfection, while being fair to multiple era's.:good

 

I'll start with Foreman and work backwards to Dempsey. In his first reign Foreman BRUTALLY destroyed Joe Frazier for the title, and then repeated the feat a second time. Outside of Ali, he is the only member of the top ten to have two stoppage victories over another top ten ATG - and one could easily argue that his two stoppages are, in fact, more definitive. And then, he wins the title a second time two decades later, becoming the oldest man to win the HW crown. Those two accomplishments alone, imo, outrank Holmes twenty defenses against ordinary opposition. Subjective, I realize - but to me, destroying a fellow ATG twice, and then becoming the oldest to ever win the title is VERY hard to beat.

I recognize that my ranking of Dempsey will probably be controversial - but in this, I follow the lead of those who actually SAW him and considered him the greatest - in fact, greater than Louis. I believe a poll was done of boxing journalists and historians in the early 60s, and Dempsey ranked #1, while Louis was something like #6. Now, obviously, I think that Louis is being underrated here - but it does say something to me that men who lived through both their eras, and saw them both, still ranked Dempsey as the best.

But I don't base it solely on the evaluations of others - I have studied Dempsey's career, watched all his major fights, and Dempsey should be given high marks for the MANNER in which he utterly dominated and destroyed most of them. Dempsey was Mike Tyson before there was a Tyson - and maintained that dominance for a longer period. And outside of arguably Tyson, and perhaps Liston, there has never been a destroyer who was as ferocious and utterly destructive in the ring as Dempsey. He is grossly underrated by most fans today, imo.

He also should get some marks for his sociological significance - outside of Ali, and arguably Louis, there is not a HW boxer who had more impact on his society and on the history of sport. I don't consider this a major factor in assessing his greatness as a boxer as such, but there is a long tradition in historical boxing assessment of at least giving SOME weight to this. Essentially, Jack Dempsey is the Babe Ruth of boxing, and that should count for something.

One quick thing on the Lewis debate though, I notice you said something like Lewis "brutally avenged" his defeats against Rahman and McCall. That is true of Rahman, yes - although it doesn't negate the fact that he was annihilated by a guy like that in the first place - but certainly not of McCall, who was fresh out of rehab, mentally crippled, and really should not have been in the ring. That fight really does little to establish Lewis's superiority over McCall, frankly, and hardly counts as anything "brutal." "Pathetic" is more like it.