My top 10 Heavyweight list

No major alterations will be made in the foreseeable future excepting a pending boost of Johnson's current standing. It may or may not happen.

1. Muhammad Ali

2. Joe Louis

3. Larry Holmes

4. Lennox Lewis

5. Sonny Liston

6. Mike Tyson

7. Jack Dempsey

8. George Foreman

9. Joe Frazier

10. Rocky Marciano

11. Jersey Joe Walcott

12. Evander Holyfield

13. Jack Johnson



I'll stop there since I recently omitted Floyd Patterson from my rankings. The list gets shifty from 14 down, but I'll try to extend it further with time.

 

:rofl

 

This is pretty fair list, though I think Holyfield is too low and Walcott too high.

 

I disagree. In my opinion, head-to-head comparisons are just as valid as achievement-based rankings. It is more telling of the fighters themselves, and while it is speculative, a clever fan with enough boxing knowledge can estimate a reasonable placement for each, individual pugilist. Aptitude in head-to-head should, in theory, reflect on the resultant resume anyway so you get a little of both indirectly.

As far as 'styles make fights' goes, it is true up to a point, but no one would really rank Donald or Toney in the same league as Holyfield. Even if we knew with absolute certainty that a prime Donald or Toney would beat a prime Holyfied, obviously they would lose their fair share to inferior competition also and would probably perform substandardly (in comparison to Holyfield) against all-time greats. We cannot categorically conclude that a boxer inferior to Ali will automatically lose to Joe Frazier. We don't know, a swarmer less capable than Joe might win the big one against Foreman. In that way, 'styles make fights' is true.

It is an inherent trait of boxing and all extended lists; someone ranked in the 99th place could beat the number 1. It doesn't stop them from being where they are meant to be.

 

Yes, but those older era analysts saw him in his era, modern media has really helped with analysing sports in general, we can pull up video anywhere and see for ourselves what any of these guys could do.

I just don't trust the opinion of guys who watched him live, because their live experience would be in tune with the primitive era and since he was such an entertainer, it was a joyful live experience that they are going to psychologically hold up high no matter what, even as the sport goes on to bigger and better heights.

I don't think he's underrated, most ATG lists consist of two factors -

1. Accomplishments

2. Head to head/skill & ability

Accomplishments wise, most of the top 10 beats Dempsey, head to head wise, Dempsey is not even in the same stratosphere as the post-60's set of guys, so it's a touchy subject for some I realise, but I just can't see fit ranking him with the best.

Bias can skew many things, racism is a very bad form of bias and even if Louis were to have just mowed down everybody up to Marciano, they'd still have had reserves about him because he was black and Dempsey was the all american hero, it's the same in the sport today with the anti-European bias that some fans produce.

I just don't see his dominance as much to be impressed with, because the crop he dominated was extremely poor. A skillful(in that time) LHW in Tunney made him look **** in 2 fights, granted he was past his best, but he certainly couldn't have been totally shot.

His modern day comparison in Tyson just wouldn't drop 2 fights to a LHW, even a great one.

And the sociological and historical means of ranking a fighter has a point, because Dempsey surely was a larger than life figure, but that doesn't mean he's the best.

We had a discussion in the lounge over the best bands and musicians several times over, and even though Jon Bonham and others from that time have the influence, effect and legacy, they hold nothing on some of these insanely skilled modern greats, same goes with boxing.

I await your reply.:good

 

Good list, i have Johnson above Liston, Frazier and Dempsey though. Just opinion, the HW ATG list is really tight between 3 and 7 imo

 

My humble suggestion

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhamad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jim Jeffries
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Lenox Lewis
8. Sonny Liston
9. Sam Langford
10. Joe Frazier
11. Larry Holmes
12. Harry Wills

 

Where is Tyson and Foreman?

And Holmes did more than Jefferies and Johnson, with vastly superior head to head ability, yet Holmes is out of the top 10.

You can't justify Langford in the top 10 at HW and not include Evander Holyfield.

 

When he was relevant, Tyson has never blown a lead in a fight. Never. So to assume that he'd all of a sudden weaken as the rounds progress is actually doubtful. Watch the fight against Tyrell Biggs- Tyson seemed to get stronger as the rounds progressed.

 

Why did they miss the cut? It's almost as if Foreman is a lock and if you want to get into details, Tyson's resume was more impressive that Dempsey's, as well as Tyson being a better monster head to head in comparison to his crude stylistic ancestor.

Superior longevity, better performances, in a weaker run yes, but his past prime performances showed his class.

Because he is a superior fighter and specimen, his skill level stomps on anybody from Johnson or Jeffries era, including those two.

If rule sets are such a big deal, then we ought to separate the different rule set era's into different classifications of the sport.

Can you go into detail?

 

I think Holmes has a point--Tyson fought 9 fights which went to the eighth round or longer. He won six and lost three with one knockout victory.
It seems that if Tyson could be taken into the late rounds he was a less formidable fighter.

 

Maybe.... or it's the other way around: It took a very formidable fighter just to make it past eight, so ,statistically, many that went past eight beat him, because the lesser fighters are "filtered" out.

 

It is not true that the debate centered only on Dempsey and Louis. Many experts picked Johnson or Jeffries, especially prior to the 1970's. As a matter of fact, I was always wondering as a boy why I heard and read so much about Dempsey and Sullivan while the experts on the radio always talked about Jack Johnson.

The late 1970's had a poll done by HBO of the boxing writers of America and the ratings were Louis, Ali, Marciano, Dempsey, and Johnson. It never narrowed down to Dempsey, Louis, and Ali.