My top 10 Heavyweights

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Sweet Science, Jun 22, 2007.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Welcome to ESB.



    You're going to have to keep an eye out for HomicidalHank, he really rags on Dempsey and anyone who rates him! For me you have him far to high, though everything you say about him is true - though i think you should hold your comments to Heavyweight boxing rather than boxing in general.


    I don't think he did have great chin - he was dropped a few times by punchers who were less than stellar. Having said that he always got up and always won - hard to ask for more than that! So having him here on achievments is reasonable I guess - but I find you head to head claim a bit odd.


    I have this guy at #2, nice to see you rate him. Can't take a man seriously unless he had Louis in his top five and you got some explaining to do if his not in your top 3, I think.



    Now, why is he in here? You've allocated 80% to achievment and record - Tunney's aren't very deep though, are they?! Not at heavyweight.


    I have him at #1 - most guys have him at #1 or #2. I think you have to work hard to justify such a low rating for him and I think that your claim that "he didnt have an exceptionally great record" is outrageous - the guy has more ATG's on his resume than any other heavyweight, doesn't he?
     
    McGrain, Jun 26, 2007
    McGrain, Jun 26, 2007
    #151
  2. UpWithEvil

    UpWithEvil Active Member Full Member

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    Perfesser Clownshoes! So kind of you to ride your unicycle over to this thread!

    WATCH OUT PETE RADEMACHER!

    WATCH OUT FLOYD PATTERSON!

    He was a lumbering sluggard with questionable stamina who could be outboxed. Jimmy Young had Foreman stepping on his tongue after 6 rounds, as would any of the all-time great scientific heavyweights from Tunney onward.

    Precision punching? Maybe on Joe Frazier and King Roman in one-sided drubbings. Once Big George started getting hit in return the precision dropped away in favor of wider, more powerful, more obvious blows. His toe-to-toe fight with a fearless brawler in Ron Lyle had less technique than Max Baer vs. a fighting kangaroo. Any of the all-time great precision punching heavyweights would exploit those wide openings and find Foreman's chin early.

    I'm just not prepared to move Jimmy Young in to the top-20.

    Foreman doesn't have the chops to beat top-5 ATG heavyweights, every one of which could give you 15 hard rounds. Foreman could give you 4 hard rounds, which might be enough to put away most fighter, but not the best of all time. I could see Foreman in the top-10, but the top-5 is rarified air to be inhaled by more skilled fighters.
     
    UpWithEvil, Jun 26, 2007
    UpWithEvil, Jun 26, 2007
    #152
  3. Holmes' Jab

    Holmes' Jab Master Jabber Full Member

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    First of all welcome to the wierd, wild, wacky and wonderful world of ESB forums mate, I'm sure you'll enjoy and participate in many of the debates and topics which are raised, both here and in the off topic lounge.

    Wow interesting list. The only time I've ever seen Ali as low was in Stewbear's list (someone who hasn't been seen around these parts for a while). Jeffries is great of course, though I think a bit high here- I've got him just outside my Top 10 (at #11), ditto Tunney (#15). Holmes, Lewis and Tyson deserve to be a slight bit higher, Dempsey lower (in my view). I'll post my list, praise or critically maul as you wish:

    1. Joe Louis
    2. Muhammad Ali/Larry Holmes (constant tussle for 2nd)
    4. Rocky Marciano (Achievements put him here, head-to-head he's lower)
    5. Lennox Lewis
    6. Joe Frazier
    7. Jack Dempsey
    8. Evander Holyfield
    9. Mike Tyson
    10. Sonny Liston
     
    Holmes' Jab, Jun 27, 2007
    Holmes' Jab, Jun 27, 2007
    #153
  4. jyuza

    jyuza Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Welcome
     
    jyuza, Jun 27, 2007
    jyuza, Jun 27, 2007
    #154
  5. Irish Steel

    Irish Steel Active Member Full Member

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    Yes i guess your right. I completely forgot about him not being in the HW for his whole career, and i took into account his light heavy days. My bad.




    Yes I think he did. But in my opinion he fought in the most overrated era in boxing history! Now that i think, I should have put him in front of tunney, so he would now be at #4
     
    Irish Steel, Jun 27, 2007
    Irish Steel, Jun 27, 2007
    #155
  6. Bill1234

    Bill1234 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    LOL yeah, Foreman was real precise in the 70's. Terrific jab??? It was good yeah, but not "terrific".
     
    Bill1234, Jun 27, 2007
    Bill1234, Jun 27, 2007
    #156
  7. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    Doesn't matter, it was still the best era in heavyweight history and Ali dominated that era, and on top of that when he was past his prime. No way he should be lower than number 2.:good
     
    C. M. Clay II, Jun 27, 2007
    C. M. Clay II, Jun 27, 2007
    #157
  8. heerko koois

    heerko koois Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    hey Mr know it all.......My top 10 is as good or better than yours....
    do you really think that there is any top 10 list that is perfect ?
    I rank boxers in periods ...Tyson is the best ever in the period 1985- 1989...Holmes had his heyday from 1978- 1984............
    and so on ...:twisted:
     
    heerko koois, Jun 28, 2007
    heerko koois, Jun 28, 2007
    #158
  9. Sweet Science

    Sweet Science Peaceful Muslim Warrior Full Member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
    It's a ridiculous list. Why care about his reasoning?

    Heerko, you must admit your list is extremely unconventional to say the least. I know you're entitled to your opinion but I have to agree with Hank, it's just a ridiculous list, sorry but I have to tell it like it is.
     
    Sweet Science, Jun 28, 2007
    Sweet Science, Jun 28, 2007
    #159
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You have lost me here.
     
    janitor, Jun 28, 2007
    janitor, Jun 28, 2007
    #160
  11. Holmes' Jab

    Holmes' Jab Master Jabber Full Member

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    A good list, but Tyson is too low and no Floyd Patterson? In my view he'd rank around about where the likes of Corbett and Langford are in your list.

    Nice to see Wills and Langford there. I suppose you could make a case for putting Peter Jackson among the Top 20 as well. Sadly he never got his warranted title shots so we'll never know :-(
     
    Holmes' Jab, Jun 28, 2007
    Holmes' Jab, Jun 28, 2007
    #161
  12. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    An outstanding post, and one that I agree with completely.

    Although I have a fair amount of respect for Joe Louis, his career accomplishments cannot even remotely be compared to that of Ali's, on any level. As you mentioned, Louis's competition was 10 leagues below most of what Ali faced between 1964 and 1980.

    Needless to say, there are a few posters on this forum who will argue against my claims, as always, but the fact is, Baer, Braddock, Schmeling, Galento, Conn, Walcott and numerous others from the 30's and 40's would not even have been ranked contenders in the 60's and 70's. What most people fail to recognize, ( or just don't want to, ) is that the sport of boxing under went massive evolutionary changes over a 30 year period between 1940 and 1970. Although you can always find exceptions to the rule, the average fighter was bigger, stronger, faster, better trained, and placed boxing ahead as is first career, rather than something he did on the side. The doors to black and hipanics fighting, and getting fair opportunities in the sport were also opened wider during this period.
     
    mr. magoo, Jun 28, 2007
    mr. magoo, Jun 28, 2007
    #162
  13. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    Walcott and Schmeling would not be ranked contenders in the 60's and 70's :lol:
     
    dmt, Jun 28, 2007
    dmt, Jun 28, 2007
    #163
  14. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    That's right......They wouldn't........
     
    mr. magoo, Jun 28, 2007
    mr. magoo, Jun 28, 2007
    #164
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    What an astonishing claim. Most guys on ESB would have both in his top 3. Given that that is the case and that the difference between 1 and 10 is probably not great when talking about the absolute top 1% of heavyweight division I find it unlikely that this absolute can be seen as acurate.

    Ali was certainly more durable - arguably the most durable ever. Louis was never KO'd in his prime. Louis' prime came during his title reign. See Schmeling I V Schmeling II.

    Or, "Louis reigned as champion for longer". Neither is relevant, really.


    Joe Louis did not lose the title. He retired as champ. You know the cirumstances of his return and have chosen to ignore it for your own purposes.

    Agreed, though I've generally found you so dismissive of Louis era heavyweights it's obvious you drastically underate them overall.

    I have Schmeling in my top 20.


    Braddock was not a journeyman. He can only be shaded as such if you are considered accurate in your assesment of the era's heavyweights. You aren't. Braddock was insanely brave - he took an incredible beating in the ring that night, he also dropped Louis in the first round. Though it was probably more sensible financially to throw it.

    It is fair to pick Liston v Louis - I personally pick Louis to win, which I feel is also sensible. I do not think it is sensible to pick Foreman v Louis. But you are right, many people do. Many people also do the opposite, no?

    Overall, Ali fought the better competition.

    Louis was probably more vulnerable; he was certainly there to be hit more.

    I love your double standard in describing Ali as "a young fighter" when dropped by Cooper (agreed) and Louis as "in his prime" when dropped by Schmeling and Braddock.

    Film also shows that Louis hit harder, was a better combination puncher, had more technical ability in punching and could punch to the body and throw a proper uppercut.


    And?

    I actually agree - if you want to submit that Louis ranks above Ali, you must demonstrate why Louis would have beaten Ali in the ring. I feel he could have done it - but conversely I have Ali at #1, and Joe at #2.
     
    McGrain, Jun 28, 2007
    McGrain, Jun 28, 2007
    #165
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