My top 20 heavyweights never to win a Ring Magazine / Lineal title.

Vitali briefly held the Ring belt , but he was never a lineal Champion.

 

You f*cking stupid **** !!! These are the links I've been referring to!!!!!

Far from trying to discredit them I whole heartedly endorse them!!!
The two fight deal in Australia defending against both Langford and McVey

.Hugh McIntosh withdrew the offer when Johnson was arraigned under the Mann Act!!!
God knows I must have posted this same thing a dozen times!!!
You're proving my argument you dense m***n!!!

Read this you ignorant t***p!
The London offer by Corri was for 60% of a projected gross of $50,000,that is $30,000 to be divided between both fighters.No training or travelling expenses .
Johnson's price for a title defence was $30,000!
Johnson would have had to pay his own exes from the US and his own training exes .Say he got the lion's share of that $30,000, perhaps $20,000 he would be fighting for about $17000 tops!

He got $31,000 for defending against Flynn in the US!!!
$30,000 purse $1.100 training exes and 1/3rd of the revenue from the fight films!!!

Eugene Corri was not a promoter ,he was a referee, even if he could have matched Johnson's price of $30,000, under whose auspices was he operating? Where was the fight to be held?
On Dec 26th 1911 Sam McVey won a 20rds dec over Sam Langford in Sydney Australia.
Hugh McIntosh then offered Johnson $30,000 to defend against McVey in Sydney Johnson accepted and the fight was confirmed on Dec 30th 1911, the bout to be held on Easter MondayApril 8th 1912.
Johnson's purse a guaranteed $30,000 plus $5000 training expenses.
The Sydney religious leaders came down against the fight and the business men backing it pulled out.
That is how the Flynn fight came to be made!!!
Having verbally agreed to fight Flynn for Coffroth in July for $31,000 Johnson was now offered by McIntosh a defence against McVey in Paris as a substitute for the Sydney fight.The problem being McIntosh had the French arena for the June23rd which was too close to the July fight!!!
Johnson, faced with a choice took the most profitable ,and easiest option
a title defence in the US for $31,000 plus1/3rd of the movie rights over a $30,OOO purse for a defence against McVey in Paris .
Johnson aware that the movie rights for the Flynn fight were a potential gold mine, chose the Flynn defence on home soil.

Here is the background of the two fight deal in Australia and its conclusion.
"Hugh McIntosh was trying to put together a deal for Johnson to fight in Australia again.
Via his representative,W C J Kelly he sent Johnson his assurances that he need not fear police interference.
At the time McIntosh was offering Johnson $25,000 per fight for a total of $50,000 the first being with Sam Langford on Boxing Day in Australia.
Johnson believed that he could and would negotiate for more money, but that once the details were ironed out he expected to sign the articles."
"On October the 12th 1912 Johnson announced that he had agreed with McIntosh to fight Langford and McVey in Australia for $55,000 for the two fights plus $5000 for training expenses $60,000 total,plus five round trip tickets for the members of his party.
Forfeits of $10,000 to bind the matches were to be posted with Al Tearney."
That matches Johnson's price of$30,000 a title defence!
"As a result of all the legal trouble McIntosh called off Johnson's fights with Langford and McVey.
McIntosh cabled that the Australian sporting people were disgusted by Johnson's relations with the Cameron girl. The allegations had so angered the Australian sporting public and to make Johnson a doubtful attraction even though the was the world champion.Hence the matches were no longer desirable" Page 669 Jack Johnson The Reign.Adam Pollack.
Johnson accepted the purses offered to make title defences against both Langford and McVey.The fact they did not happen is because McIntosh the promoter withdrew his offer!!!
I've had this information for a few years!
Want me to post the details of the two aborted title defences against Jeannette and the reason they did not happen yet again!!!
Jan1912 Johnson agreed to fight Jeannette in NY for the McMahon brothers ,subject to him receiving his purse of$30,000.Dan Mcketrick Jeannette's manager offered Johnson $15,000 ,with Jeannette to receive
$5000.Johnson reiterated his price was $30,000.The McMahon brothers met Johnson's price but before things could go any further.
On Jan11th 1912 Frank O Neill the New York Boxing Commissioner stated that he would not allow Johnson to box anyone in NY making a public statement "I have come to the conclusion that it is against public policy and expediency to have Johnon box here.That is final."

Aug 14th 1912 Johnson signed to fight Jeannette over 10rds at the Saint Nicholas Arena onSep25th 1912,his purse was a guaranteed $25,000,plus 25% of anything over gate receipts of$60,000 plus 50% of the film rights.
The promoters were Ed and Jesse McMahon, both the promoters and Johnson posted a $5000 forfeit with A Learney.
On Aug22nd a closed doors meeting was held between the promoters and the NY Boxing Commission.
After the meeting the promoters called off the fight.
The Commission refused to allow Johnson to box anyone in NY and threatened to withdraw the licence of any club that promoted such a fight.
The Commission had the backing of Senator James Frawley who had framed the bill legalizing boxing in New York State, the fight was dead in the water.
Ed McMahon gave out a public statement saying that," the Commission thought it best for the good of boxing that Johnson not be allowed to box in NY"

Many believed that the Commission was only opposed to a black & white contest involving Johnson but Commissioner O Neill clarified his postition when he made the following statement.
"The Commission decided long ago that Johnson would not be permitted to fight here.We believe now ,as we did then that the presence of Johnson ina ring contest in this state would be inimical to the best interests of boxing,the status of which has greatly improved under the Frawley Law".

So two proposed title defences against Jeannette in NY which Johnson had agreed to were vetoed by the NY Commission.

On Sep 7th 1912 Victor Breyer offered Johnson a straight $30,000 to defend against Jeannette in Paris or Monte Carlo with the stipulation that
the fight be over 30rds.No way was Johnson fighting Jeannette over 30rds in 1912!!!

On Sep 12th Jeff Clark163.5lbs won a 6 round dec over197.5lbs Jeannette in Pittsburgh.
You just proved my case for me yet again, and now I've provided the primary sources . How utterly ridiculous are you!!!!!

NB No charge for the education. because undoubtedly you will attempt to spin this again at some later point.

Why not buy these books and save yourself all this embarrassment and humiliation?
Plus you will actually become educated on the subject that consumes your whole time here!

 

What I mean is trawl his input that will tell you all you need to know.

 

I'm still confused. I find 2 source that stated vitaly is lineal champion & the other he is not.

It's sad because he was Great Champion.

I hope he was, he deserved it.

 

Rosenbloom seems wildly overrated here as a heavyweight. His big wins were over smaller men. The only heavyweight champion I think he ever defeated was Braddock and that fight in 1929 was probably at light-heavy. And he lost a lot to ordinary heavies like Hank Hankinson.

Who to replace him with. Rex Layne would be a good choice with wins over both Walcott and Charles. I remember comparing Layne to Elmer Ray a number of years back and being surprised that it was Ray who had the padded career while Layne was in against tough opponents much more often. Against common opponents Walcott, Charles, and Thompson, Ray went 2-4 and Layne 3-2.

Steve Hamas defeated everyone he fought including Schmeling & Loughran. Tommy Loughran and Billy Conn would also be strong contenders.

On Norton--wouldn't the third Ali fight have been for the lineal championship?

On Quarry--he failed so often and badly against the top men that I have problems seeing him as the quite the force others seem to.

 

I produced verified information on agreements signed by Johnson to defend his title against Joe Jeannette twice.Verified agreements to defend against Langford and McVey.I prove that the fights fell through because of the NY Commission and Johnson's legal problems with the Mann Act.All primary sourced by Adam Pollack.With contemporary newspaper reports and verified quotes from the principals and you still deny their existence.You still deny that Johnson signed to fight Langford and McVey in Australia.You still deny that Johnson signed to defend against Jeannette not once but twice!!!


You Sir are a bigoted, hate filled, MORON.

 

I defend no one, I state the verified truth, something you would not recognize if it jumped up and punched you in your stupid face!
1.We are talking about Champion Johnson signing to defend his title against Jeannette in New York twice . verified and in print the defences being cancelled by the NY Commission !
2. We are talking about Johnson signing to defend against Langford and McVey in Australia only to have the promoter cancel the fights.
Both verified from primary sources and contemporary newspapers, you can spew all the hatred out about Johnson you want but you cannot get around this stone cold fact!!!
Johnson did not transport anyone to his night club you stupid p***k! He was charged under the Mann Act for abduction,then when that charge failed to stick he was charged for transporting a woman who was not his wife over a stateline and having sex with her. God your are dense aren't you!!!
The French offered a straight $30,000 for Johnson to fight Jeannette over 30rds in Paris or Monte Carlo this was on Sep 7th 1912, 5 days later Jeannette lost to 163lbs Jeff Clark !!! No way was Johnson fighting Jeannette over 30 rds in1912.
Johnson was stripped of his title by the French Federation. The night after he defended his title against Battling Jim Johnson, the French Federation put on a bout between Langford and Jeannette for their version of the World's Heavyweight title proclaiming Langford the Champion upon his victory ,within 3 weeks they stripped him too, reinstating Johnson!!!
We've been over the 1908 contract several times and I have had correspondence with Langford's biographer Clay Moyle about it. You have added nothing!!!
All you've done so far is post contracts and defences that Johnson AGREED to, defences that were cancelled through no fault of his. Do you actually understand that?



Now produce a verified offer that I haven't known about for a couple of years and haven't already posted here at least twice!!!

 

Jeannette came from New Jersey that's why the NY promoters wanted to put the fight on in NY!
Name another promoter in the US who was offering Johnson his asking price of $30,000 for a title defence and suggesting a title fight that Johnson refused!!!
There wasn't one you bloody c**t*n!!!
He could have fought Langford in London for £3000, no training expenses ,no travelling expenses.
Once he was champion he said boll*cks to that ,I'm champ now ,I want the same purse for defending the title as Burns got for defending against me.Meet my price and I'll fight him.
I had to fight Burns for nearly nothing just to get my chance , I chased Jeffries and Burns for years,now I'm champ I'm 30 years old, I want to make some money.
I'll fight anyone as long as they come up with $30,000!!!
You are an astoundingly ignorant man. You will repeat the same lies, again and again.
No verified proof will deter you, no corrections will dissuade you.
You will be back here soon enough, telling any one who is stupid enough to give you any credence that GunBoat Smith scored a tko over Johnson and all the other bullsh*t that you regularly vomit up.

Keep making these silly threads and I'll keep correcting your blatant lies.
Unlike you I will always have, and always will be ready to produce the proof to back my posts up!!!
All you ever produce is more phobic hatred.
I know a racist bigot when I see one!!!

 

Nothing miserable about me, I've just bought my youngest Grandson a toy which he is playing with on our lounge floor.
A couple of Vodka Tonics tonight and watch Fargo. Going out to dinner tomorrow evening, then jazz Sunday I have a great week end to look forward to!!! What will you be doing, setting fire to some some crosses?
How can I be a Black Power Racist? I'm Caucasian you stupid f**k!!!
My favourite fighter is Jack Dempsey ,last time I looked he was white!!!
NB Before you use the word better learn to spell it, you illiterate clown, it's RACIST!!!

I only have issues with proven bigoted liars like yourself.
You made this thread but couldn't resist adding a few dollops of hatred and vitriol in your opening page .
Here it is.

"1 ) Sam Langford - Has the most head to head wins of the lot. Ducked by Johnson who pulled out a signed contract to meet with the lineal title on the line.


11 ) Joe Jeannette. Avoided by Johnson, and once showed up in the ring as a sub for Jack Dempsey, who balked at the opportunity to fight him.


12 ) Gunboat Smith, Smith famously has a TKO over Johnson in an exhibition match while Johnson was the champion. He has wins over Langford, Willard, Moran, Flynn, and Ross. The last four names all received title shots from Jack Johnson. From 1912-to mid-1914, Smith was a very active and successful fighter, perhaps the best " white hope of the timeline".
Three statements and three lies. So 3 out of 3.

Joe Jeannette was never a friend of Johnson's, neither was Langford ,both hated his guts and took every opportunity to disparage him , and spread lies about their fights with him Langford saying he dropped Johnson twice ,he never floored him in fact it was he who was on the canvas for 2 long 9 counts.

Jeannette said he weighed 165lbs for his last fight with Johnson,total bullsh*t !He forgot the fight in which he butted Johnson twice too ,and the fact that he was on the floor multiple times in their series.!!! .

Langford and Jeannette even loudly backed Jeffries to beat him.

Langford was arraigned for beating up his wife. That's ok with you .Jeannette's wife was white but he kept his head down and was careful not to upset Mistuh Whitey .That was not Johnson's way he didn't give a f*ck about racist bigots like you and neither do I!!!
I couldn't give a sh*t what Johnson's managers said about him I'm only interested in his fistic capabilities.

In your first post you sneaked in the derogatory and untrue remarks ,I merely responded to them ,as I will whenever I feel like it!!!
Your credibility has been blown here for some considerable time. Get used to being an irrelevance.