My top 20 heavyweights of all time

Those are reasonable questions and I don't have the answers.
But I can easily imagine that Louis of 1938 - '42 could have put both Frazier and Foreman careers into oblivion.

In other words, I think Ali and Frazier and Foreman benefited from circumstances (the fact that they all got to reign as champions whilst undefeated) as much as anything.

Another way or illustrating it would be to say that IF Ali had never got into exile he might well have dispatched Frazier and Foreman in easier fights than any win he actually holds over them ..... but the irony is such elevated greatness would have prevented Frazier and Foreman from being recognized as that great, and Ali's rep might suffer for it.

There are probably men on Louis's record who are considered mediocre who may have been near-great in other eras.

Joe Louis's dominance possibly dampens the quality of his resume.


It's not something I'd argue to death but it's food for thought and reason enough for me to weigh the impressive record of dominance quite heavily against a 'resume' that seems to hold greater 'quality'.
I think Joe Louis's record is SO GOOD he stacks up wel with absolutely anyone.

 

I've never seen Godoy but I would expect Frazier to walk through the Baers and Schmelling. I can't see any circumstance in which any of the three beat him, I don't think they were good enough or mobile enough to keep Frazier at bay- nor did they have Foreman power

 

at the end of the day suzieq never fought n likes talikin **** that he knows nothin about.. His hero got stretched twice by a heavy with average punching power an had mob ties behind him that molded an fixed sonnys career up. an he trys his best to push that **** in everybodys face. Fool

 

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joes Louis

3. Larry Holmes
4. Rocky Marciano
5. George Foreman

6. Lennox Lewis
7. Jack Johnson

8. Joe Frazier
9. Evander Holyfield

10. Mike Tyson
11. Sonny Liston
12. Wladimir Klitschko

13. James Jeffries

14. Jack Dempsey
15. Harry Wills

16. Riddick Bowe
17. Ezzard Charles

18. Floyd Patterson
19. Max Schmelling
20. Jersey Joe Walcott

Really like your list. Only problems for me where Johnson too low and Wlad a little high. Don't think he's quite great enough for the top ten yet. From 11-20 is normally very subjective but I like it's grouping :good

 

I'm not saying we should take cruiserweight titles as heavyweight titles, of course. But, it must be considered who you're beating at the weight, in my opinion. If you beat good names there, it must be counted to be historically fair, I think. I couldn't get around Holy having some very good wins there, and I see no reason not to count them when comparing. Same would go for any of them. Haye, Adamek, Gomez, Jirov, any of these guys moving up from cruiser to heavy, if we're talking about them compared to past heavies, we must use any significant wins at cruiser to be fair, in my opinion.

 

Agreed. That taken into account, I feel Holy belongs in the top 5. I think he's probably got the 2nd best resume of all the Heavyweight champions and though he was obviously never a dominant champion, he's not nearly as inconsistent as some would make out. Losing to just two fighters (both of whom you managed to score victories over) in your first 14 years as a professional is hardly inconsistent.

Can't for the life of me understand someone ranking Liston over him, for example.

 

Excellent point.

I Agree. If I'm not mistaken, Charley Rose had Max Baer in his top ten. That kinda gives some idea of how Baer was perceived back then (not that Rose's lists are all that credible these days).

I'm not sure about that. Funny you mentioned Foreman. Max Baer was almost analogous to Big George in his time. A clumsy but superb physical specimen with tremendous brute strength, a mean punch and rock hard chin. He might have been even more clumsy than George, but in the power and chin departments I don't see him falling behind.

 

If your bored at work, try a H2H tournament with 1 guy facing everyone else on your list. I suggest you use a small number like 11 though if you dont have a program.

21 fighters each had a total of 20 fights.

1. Lennox Lewis 18-2
2. Muhammad Ali 16-4
3. George Foreman 16-4
4. Sonny Liston 15-5
5. Joe Louis 13-7
6. Mike Tyson 12-8
8. Vitali Klitschko 12-8
9. Larry Holmes 12-8
10. Wladimir Klitschko 11-9
11. Jack Johnson 11-9
12. Evander Holyfield 10-10
13. Rocky Marciano 9-11
14. David Haye 9-11
15. Riddick Bowe 9-11
16. Gene Tunney 6-14
17. Joe Frazier 6-14
18. Max Baer 5-15
19. Ezzard Charles 5-15
20. Primo Carnera 2-18
21. Floyd Patterson 2-18

I was very shocked at Liston ranking so high. He was only beaten by Ali, Holmes, Foreman and the Klitschkos.

 

Mine:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. George Foreman
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Joe Frazier
8. Sonny Liston
9. Mike Tyson
10. Wladimir Klitschko

11. Evander Holyfield
12. Jack Johnson
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Harry Wills
15. Vitali Klitschko
16. Riddick Bowe
17. James Jeffries
18. Sam Langford
19. Jack Dempsey
20. Ken Norton

 

:good

 

Wlad over HolyField????? Geeeez show me the guys Wlads beaten that can compare with this?

-Mike Tyson X2
-George Foreman
-Larry Holmes
-Riddick Bowe
-John Ruiz
-Hasim Rahman
-Buster Douglas
- Draw with Lennox Lewis
-Michael Moorer
-Ray Mercer

And if you add the Valuev robbery, hes actually fought guys Wlad Ducked.

 

Since it includes H2H I'm fine with it. At least Suzie bumped him down. He's not ranked 3rd which is absurd. Six is a little more reasonable.

Patterson got bombed out by Liston, Schemling by Baer. Of course, Schemling has the better overall win against Louis so I understand this perspective. Patterson's post title run is rather overlooked nowadays. I may be overrating Patterson, though.

 

01 Ali
02 Louis

03 Holmes
04 Marciano
05 Lewis
06 Foreman

07 Holyfield
08 Johnson
09 Dempsey
10 Frazier

11 Tyson
12 Liston
13 Jefferies

14 Charles
15 Wlad
16 Walcott

I can give a solid 16. Gets hazy after that.

 

Dempsey at 7 and Tyson and Frazier at 10 and 11. Good luck defending that.