My Top 50 All Time Heavyweights

Jeffries nees to be in to top 7 move tyson to 7-12 area(at 4 its laughable) Dempsey also needs to be bumped up along with Johnson

 

Why should they be above Tyson? What do Jeffries have that's better than Tyson's blow-outs of fighters as Berbick, Spinks, Tubbs, Stewart, Golota etc and impressive victories over Biggs, Holmes, Thomas, Bruno and others?

Ali, Louis, Lewis, Holmes, Johnson and Marciano are above Tyson in terms of resume, but not many others IMO. I think his record are about on par with Frazier's and Liston's. H2H I have them close as well.

 

Well Jeffries only Beat Corbett, Fitz, Hank Griffin, Tom Sharky, Bob Armstrong a Draw With joe Choynski a draw and win over Gus Ruhlin, Peter Jackson

Head To head Jeffries was Just as Big Better Stamina better Chin, Punch Power is Close and I would Highly Favor Jeffries over Tyson Due to His Chin, Stamina and thoughness

 

For the note, I also think those guys should be higher than they are, but in my previous post I only mentioned lowering fighters as that would naturally bring these guys up.

 

Actually, according to accounts I've read, Walcott beat Bivins pretty soundly and was nearly robbed (I believe the NY Times referred to it as a match in which "the Easterner had the advantage all the way," for example). You have to remember that going into this fight, Walcott was viewed as just an old pug, while Bivins was the guy on an enormous winning streak who had practically cleaned out both the light heavyweight and heavyweight divisions in Louis' absence. Walcott was brought in as the fodder for Bivins as a tune-up for a potential title shot.
Ray's win over Walcott was not disputed in any of the newspaper accounts I've seen. The NY Times account had it 6-4 for Ray, Sid Roth wrote that Ray "had a clear winning edge," etc. I haven't seen any accounts that indicated they thought Ray didn't win this fight.

The Associated Press scorecard had Walcott winning 6-3-1 in his "loss" to Maxim. From what I've seen, this was clearly viewed as a questionable or outright bad decision. Moreover, Maxim never had a 50-fight heavyweight winning streak and never beat Charles (in five attempts, no less!) or a comparable heavyweight, aside from Patterson, who was weighing in the 160s at the time of their fight.

Then evidently you never read my thread on Ray from earlier this year, which SuzieQ appears to be plagiarizing a bit in his own posts in this thread. The boxrec description is misleading; outside of it, I've seen one or two that were emphatically in favor of Ray, one or two that gave a narrow edge to Ray, and one or two that gave a narrow edge to Charles. It looks to have been a legitimately close fight which, perhaps, was a case of contrasting styles and criteria leading to disparate scorecards.

Corbett wasn't bigger than Walcott or Charles, nor was he younger than Charles when Ray beat him, nor was he as good as either Walcott or Charles, I'd say.

To be explicit about my position here, on my latest list, Fitzsimmons ranked two spots higher than Ray (25 to 27). I think they're fairly interchangeable and that either one could be reasonably ranked more or less anywhere between, say, 20 and 40.

 

Yeah, Corbett and Fitz when they were old, and it was by no means blow-outs. In that case Tyson's demolition of Holmes, who only had been defeated once and never KO'd, is more impressive. Jeffries also blatantly used the colour line when taking on opponents, thus refusing to face some very good opposition. I would never, ever rate a guy who made it easy for himself like this in the top. 10. In no way shape or form is his wins better than Tyson.

Personally, I think Tyson would slaughter Jeffries. But there isn't enough film in good enough quality to draw any absolute conclusions really, I would say.

Better chin?! How did Jeffries prove he had better chin? Because he could take the best that Corbett and Fitzimmons had to give him? I know Fitzimmons was a great puncher p4p, but Tyson took bombs from guys like Bruno, Tucker and Razor Ruddock without going down. Not to mention the punches from Lewis and Douglas he stood up to before eventually succumbing.

For me, having Jeffries on a top 10 is obvious bias towards the old days.

 

woa woa there lol, so I am not allowed to use your amazing sources which you posted in a public forum for all us to see now? not only did I use them in context, i posted in the thread that they came from you. I think you are being a tad unfair, considering I have posted newspaper clippings before that you yourself would go on to use. w/e man.

 

Interesting stuff on Elmer Ray. I wish there was film on him for us to see. I get the hunch Ray might have been more or a boxer with a chip on his shoulder than a pure puncher type. Beating Charles or Walcott on points ( offically or in the press ) and not scoring knockdowns is a reason why I beleive this.

Personally, I do not see Ray as a top 30 guy. History does not remember him, and if he was a big puncher, he did not show it that often vs class guys, nor did he show a good chin…on paper.

 

I have Ray at 21 or 22 on my list. He was a very good fighter, certainly a top 30 guy.

Ever think to wonder that is perhaps because there is no film of elmer ray?


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Papers describe elmer ray as a devastating puncher. he was called "Violent" for a reason. but yes he had skills too.

Charles and Walcott in there prime years were hard to knockout. Ray did hurt both of them several times.

 

Corbett in the first fight was boxing surpierly until the 22nd or 23rd round cant remember then won a fight against Kid Mcoy if im not mistaken befor the rematch with Jeffries then it waas Jeffries who was out boxing the guy who had Outboxed everyone

Fitz went on the become the First LightHW champion of the world after he fought Jeffries and in there rematch afte Jeffries beat him for the title removed allt he padding from his Gloves andhe still couldnt hurt Jeffies at all

What about Hank Griffin Dosent He have a Winning Recourd over Jack Johnson also Jeffries managed to Take the Best Shots a prime Choynski could Throw at him one even pushing his lip between his teeth that had to be cut out and still went 20 rounds with him when Johson Couldnt even manage to go 3 with a Washed up Choynski

as for the Color line it wasnt Jeffries himself who drew it it was the media and the times that he fought in that Drew it even Johnson Drew a so called Color line when he was champion

 

No, History does not remember Ray. There is not flim on Greb, P. Jackson or Sullivan, but history remembers them well. Film helps, for sure, but the best in an era can over come lack of flim.

Yes, I posted this way back when. I have about 50 or so such lists from Historians. Goldman is one of two historians to have Ray in the top 20. My point is Ray in the top 20 is very rare.

 

Yes, he was outboxing Jeffries, wasn't he, or at least kept on even terms until the KO? Tyson destroyed the very highly regarded boxer that was Michael Spinks in 90 seconds. Spinks was younger and bigger than Corbett, and had never been defeated at HW.

Holmes went on to beat good contenders well into his 40's. He was also destroyed by Tyson. He hardly landed a blow.

Again, how is this better than Tyson pummeling the likes of Biggs, Thomas and Tubbs without breaking a real sweat?

He was quite happy to live by the colour line, and that's what really matters. That Johnson also used it during his reign hurts his legacy as well somewhat. The difference is that he had already established his supremacy among the black fighters, and then did it over the white fighters as well.

 

I forgot Corbett, Peter Jackson and I wanted to put Razor Ruddock in there between 45-50. It is just too many names to remember.