My Top 50 HWs?

One punch can do it if he lands properly.
But to make sure he'll use a combo

 

Ali was almost as good as prime, 90-95 %, in some respects better.
And the fact that he beat Frazier twice afterwards is irrelevant since Frazier was shot by then. Age takes a far bigger toll on a pressure fighter like Frazier. And Frazier was almost completely blind in one eye by their 3rd fight. He had eye issues since the late 60's that got worse as he aged. Plus Ali still had to resort to cheating in their second fight by excessively clinching, holding and pushing down on Frazier's head, for which he should have been deducted points. And was about to quit in their 3rd fight.

No he wasn't.
Ali was properly prepared for Frazier and in good mental state, Tyson wasn't properly prepared for Douglas and his personal life was a mess.

Ali does not outclass anything. The stylistic matchup clearly favors Tyson.

 

You are delude Ali had been out for over 3 years with only a couple of fights beforehand .For someone who relied on speed this was a massive disadvantage.Tyson`s personal problems were insignificant compared to Ali`s problems.But you believe what you want i know what the general opinion is

 

Oh really ?!

Tyson's life was going to pieces:
- his former team was gone and he had been working with incompetent management for almost 2 years.
- he had a messy divorce from Robin Givens, and the problems in their marriage were common knowledge to the average Joe due to the media exposure.
- his sister Denise Tyson died in her late 20's.

What were Ali's problems by comparison ?! Cheating on his wife ????

 

You are just making excuses for Tysons defeat by Douglas.Most of these problems existed when he thrashed Carl Williams.Ali`s loss of speed is more crucial to this debate

 

The Williams fight was stopped, so we don't know how it would have gone down if the ref had allowed Williams to continue.
Ali's loss of speed was minimal, 10 % max for the first Frazier fight

 

There is so much wrong here, that I won't address it all, but I want to ask one question.

Why do you, and sometimes others, keep acting like Jeffries was some fearsome pressure type fighter, who is constantly and actively moving forward. You act like he's the HW version of Henry Armstrong or something. He wasn't even as aggressive as Hart, so that comparison means little.

Jeffries would always be perfect for Johnson. Him slowly plodding forward in a crouch, looking for the opening to unload one or two punches will never work against Johnson. That plays right into Johnson's hands, even the 1903-05 Johnson. Johnson would easily outbox Jeffries and be laying a hurting on him. Against a White Champion like Jeffries, I don't think he's holding back like he had to do other times.

I just see a gradual beating taking Jeffries out eventually, with him unable to land enough or corner Johnson enough. Could he just outlast him, and eventually get him in round 35, I guess, but he may never fight again the beating he would sustain thanks to Johnson countering and uppercuts. Anyways, I just don't like this idea that Jeffries fought even as aggressively as Marvin Hart, he didn't.

 

I don`t know how old you are but believe me Ali in the 60`s was very much faster then than he was in the 70`s

 

Everybody knows that 60s Ali was faster than in the 70s, but I wasn't talking about the 70s as a whole, I was just comparing a 65-67 Ali to a 71 Ali, and the difference is small.

 

I agree with you about hand speed.
Not foot speed. He had lost the ability to dance for 15 rounds, & he coould not move his whole body as quickly.
Though still fast, & his hands were still extremely fast.

 

Yeah, I was talking about hand speed.

 

No it was not

 

Where did I say fearsome pressure fighter? Can you show me? This is the problem with this board. People change the wording around. Let's quote what we say. Jeffries could be a pressure fighter, a boxer or an infighter, depending on what he needed to do. He was the aggressor in all of his fights, save the 2nd Sharkey fight where he threw out his shoulder flooring Sharkey in round 2, forcing him to use his right hand often and the left sparingly.

Johnson didn't like pressure fighters, had a limited punch out put, medicare power, was chinny when someone landed.

If Hart could out work Johnson, so could Jeffries. If Ketchel could floor and hurt Johnson by his own words, what would happen is a prime Jeffries lands on him? Even anti Jeffries poster like Mcvey admits Jeffries would beat Johnson when he was the active champion.

Johnson beat the very young and green, or small per title. He was exposed in victory as a champion quite a bit and lost while Jeffries was champion to Klondike ( TKO ), Choynski ( KO ), Griffin ( points ) and Hart ( Points ). He also has his share of draws mixed in. None of these three would rate with Jeffries best wins as champion. That should end the conversation from 1899-1905.

 

You came way too far here. Jeffries was legit in his prime and no way that young, inexperienced Johnson who struggled with quite a few opponents would "easily outbox him".

 

Again, there is no point is saying much, as your mind is already made up. The point is, Jeffries DIDN'T apply enough pressure that it would disrupt or bother Johnson style. That has been, and always will be my position of their style. For God's sake, look at their actual fight, Jeffries did his slow plodding forward, while in a crouch looking for an opening to counter or rush to throw a punch. That was very similar to how he always fought. So even if we give him more stamina and reflexes from being younger.... his style STILL plays right into the hands of Johnson. Johnson didn't like guys that made him lead, and maybe good pressure fights, what he feasted on, was fighters who came forward methodically. Anyways, my point will always remain the same, Johnson is better than Jeffries Prime for Prime, and at any point after 1903, I'm confident he wins, and maybe earlier.