My Top 50 HWs?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by George Crowcroft, Sep 14, 2020.


  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Ok
     
  2. Ra's Al-Ghul

    Ra's Al-Ghul The one and only! Full Member

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    Vitali never competed in the Heavyweight!:deal:
     
  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    I agree with every word. But I don't value wins over ridiculously green fighters as highly as I do prime for prime, and that is probably the crux of the argument. And Johnson's record is very patchy. Sure, he beat a lot of good guys at various parts of their careers, but he also lost to a lot of mediocre guys (normally I don't care for that, but Jeffries didn't) and he also fought a lot of small guys (Jeffries did too, but they were still the best in the world. Johnson's middleweight opposition weren't better than the HWs he wasn't fighting).
    Well the problem with this is that however high you rank Langford, Wills has at least two wins over a prime version.

    If you rank Langford's wins highly, then you have to rank Wills' high too, as ranking Langford's wins high translates to him ranking high, and Wills has plenty of wins over Langford, as well doing much better vs most common opponents. Wherever you rank Langford, Wills has to be higher IMO. And I don't really rate any that high, so I find it hard to fit Langford in a top 20, when I doubt Wills should make it into one.

    He may have better overall depth than those guys, particularly Vitali, but I'd take their best wins over Langford's. Wills' in ring abilities don't impress me much. Actually, outside of Langford himself, nobody from that era impressed me in a way which would match their station.

    Like I said, I will play fast and loose with some rankings. Langford and Jeffries/Johnson seem to fall under that category.
     
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  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Yeah I have Langford number 15 and Wills number 14. I agree with your view on those two in comparison.

    I don't actually think Johnson did lose to a lot of mediocre guys tbh. His loss to Jeannette was on a foul, his loss to Hart was debatable.

    So you have to go right the way back to 1901. Klondike was a fight he was winning and gassed, plus he successfully rematched. Him and Griffin were evenly matched and they never really fought once Johnson hit his stride. The Choynski loss is dubious as hell from what I've read.
     
  5. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Not necessarily. I think that Liston would beat the brakes off Marciano head to head but that Marciano's better reign earns him legacy points sufficient to warrant a slightly higher place.

    I would have Wlad higher than Vander, tho. Probably just switch them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Jeffries has 22 recorded fights. However his early record and record as champion is incomplete. For example it is written that Jeffries whipped 20 men before facing Fitzsimmons. There are reported KO's over Ed Martin, Frank Childs, and Kid Cotton. On his European championship tour, it is written that he Ko'd 10 men. He also had a similar tour in the USA. Some of these names might still be out there in defunct newspapers.
     
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I've zero doubts about Jeffries being an ATG. I just think Johnson is a bit greater.

    In terms of pre 30s champs I'd go

    Johnson
    Dempsey
    Jeffries
    Sullivan
    Fitzsimmons
    Tunney
    Corbett
    Willard
    Burns
    Hart
     
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  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    "1896-05-22 San Francisco Call (that's prior to his first pro fight listed at boxrec) wrote that "Jeffries has fought and whipped twenty men during his short career as a prize-fighter, and is now looking for big game."

    Taken from another thread.

    Jeffries as of now has 22 pro wins. Another 20 would make him 44-0 before coming out of retirement.
     
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I've zero doubts about Jeffries being an ATG. I just think Johnson is a bit greater.

    In terms of pre 30s champs I'd go

    Johnson
    Dempsey
    Jeffries
    Sullivan
    Fitzsimmons
    Tunney
    Corbett
    Willard
    Burns
    Hart
     
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Some see it that way, others do not . Even the poster Mcvey admits that Jeffries would have beaten Johnson while active from 1899-1905

    I see it this way, pre-1930 with a mix of head to head and legacy.

    Jeffries
    Demspey
    Tunney
    Fitzsimmons
    Johnson
    Corbett
    Sullivan
    Willard
    Burns
    Hart
     
  11. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    What does the poster McVey have to do with this?

    Jeffries has the edge in common opposition at the time with the Griffin fight. Stylistically there's no reason to assume he couldn't replicate what Hart did and force the action for the full fight. But if I'm to say who I think the better HW was, from 1902 onwards I give the edge to Johnson.
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Just showing he can be honest even though he hates Jeffries. Yes Jeffries has the edge in common opposition. He floored Choysnkii 2-3x and had to settle for a draw. Choynski, past his best god Johnson. He KO'd Griffin,and later had him down 2-3 more time in a 4 rounder, the same Griffin best Jack Johnson. Jeffries results vs Munore was far better, same thing with Mexican Pete.

    Johnson didn''t shine vs Hart. He lost, and Hart was not on par with quite a few Jeffries opponents, that was 1905, so I disagree Johnson would have the edge by 1902. Jeffries by the way said he'd fight Hart if people wanted to see it.

    IMO Jeffries retied too early, he should have bought Hart, and 3-4 more times.
     
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Why would I be bothered about his honesty or his hatred? I'm not talking to McVey here, I'm talking to you.

    I know Jeffries had the edge, I said so myself.

    Jeffries definitely retired too soon. I think he'd have beaten Hart and Burns and Root for that matter.

    Gon to my head, I say Johnson beats him. Any time from 1902 onwards.
     
  14. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti A Being of Inexplicable Inclinations Full Member

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    Where would you rank Wills, Langford, and Peter Jackson in there?

    The only thing I'd really disagree with there is having Dempsey above Jeffries, who I think did a much better job of dominating his era, and in one that was atleast as good as Dempsey's
     
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  15. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Wills and Langford respectively in between Dempsey and Jeffries. Jackson in between Corbett and Willard.
     
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