Name an Hard Hitter, That Joe Frazier Definitely Beats?

100% spot on! Even FOTC Frazier could not have beaten George--he was simply the worst possible match up!! (If you could design THE perfect fighter in a laboratory to beat Joe Frazier you would design a clone of George Foreman!!)

But aside from George I think Joe at his peak beats most all of the other sluggers in HW history. In addition to that pulverizing left hook Joe had a fierce body attack, incredible stamina, an underrated defense with his bob and weave style, and a toughness that IMHO no other HW could match. That's a pretty formidable package!!

 

Well, Muhammad Ali did stop Foreman, Frazier, Lyle, Bonavena, Williams, Folley, Ellis, Quarry (twice), Cooper (twice), Liston (twice). Ali was no slouch when he set his feet and punched. Ali stopped some of the biggest punchers ever.

Frazier also stopped Bob Foster, one of the biggest light heavyweight punchers ever.

As far as hard hitters Frazier beats, for starters, I don't think Earnie Shavers stands a chance against him. Ron Stander stopped Shavers. So did Quarry, who Frazier just beat up twice.

 

You're one of those people who say "An historian" aren't you? I don't know if we would get along very well in person. I have almost taken you off of my Christmas card list and believe me, you want to be on that list. My cards are beautiful. Or, failing that, inappropriate and funny.

I mean, it's actually funny how accurate this is, in a relative sense.

 

Foster's power was non existent at Heavyweight and he wouldn't even be in the top 100 Heavyweights.

Ali had respectable power but hes not a KO artist.

Frazier has alot of heart and will so I do think he could weather the storm against a certain amount of punchers.

But he is still untested against a real upper echelon puncher and some of these opponents would have considerable weight advantage whilst being 1 punch KO artists.

It would've been interesting to see Frazier beat some of the notable hitters of his era Mac Foster, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, etc. So we could base more of on an opinion on Frazier against real bigger hitters.

 

I have to call bull**** on the "respectable" power comment. I defy you to name a heavyweight KO artist who stopped as many big names as Ali did.

Ali stopped George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston (twice), Oscar Bonavena, Cleveland Williams, Jerry Quarry (twice), Jimmy Ellis, Ron Lyle, Archie Moore, Floyd Patterson twice, Henry Cooper twice, Zora Folley, Karl Mildenberger ... the list is too long to mention. Shavers was also out on his feet at the end.

Ali also "straight up carried" a number of fighters who went the distance with him, including "name" guys. Terrell could easily be on the stoppage list. As well as Buster Mathis.

Ali could punch, as nearly every big name who faced him found out.

 

Probably Bonevena, who was a very good puncher, along with
a very physical style. Which, in my opinion the main reason Frazier
had issues with him, not so much his power , it's was his
physical style that set up his power shots.
Same with Foreman. It wasn't his power by itself
it with his physicality, that set up his power shots.
The pushing, pulling, keeping Frazier from getting leverage
and off balance.

Every big punching heavyweight in history didn't fight in a
physical style. Most, where traditional Queensbury. Most
didn't have a great jab, and
Frazier would be able to see them loading up their power
punches, and make them miss the vast majority of them.
He wasn't very easy to hit. And his counter left hooks and
aggression
would make most hesitant to unleash power punches
anyway.
Frazier didn't fight many tremendous punchers, that's
true. That doesn't mean he couldn't beat the vast
majority of them if you look at what made him great
and how it potentially matched up with most of them.

 

Jerry Quarry beat all those guys (Mac Foster, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers ... and stopped two of them).

You think Joe Frazier couldn't?

One of the reasons they didn't get Frazier is they couldn't even get past Quarry. (Hell, Shavers couldn't avoid getting stopped by Ron Stander when Frazier was the champ.)

Quarry got beat up and stopped by Frazier twice.

Also, Quarry got knocked out by Chuvalo. (Frazier beat up and stopped Chuvalo). Quarry lost to Ellis. (Ellis got beat up and stopped by Frazier.) Quarry lost to Eddie Machen. (Machen got beat up and stopped by Frazier.) Quarry couldn't get past seven rounds with Ali in two fights. (Frazier floored and beat Ali.)

I think Joe Frazier proved himself just fine.

 

Quarry had a counter punching style and boxed smartly against the likes of Lyle and thrived against punchers. Frazier would be coming straight forward swarming against big men who had considerable power so it's more dangerous.

Do I think Frazier could beat them ? Yes. But again we never really see Frazier beat a big dangerous KO artist. He had a good chin but he could still be hurt. Bugner had him on jelly legs a few times, Ali came close to stopping him in the 2nd round of their 2nd fight, and Bonavena had him on the floor twice.

I think Frazier's heart and will which he had in abundance could weather the storm against a significant amount of punchers. But then there might be a few that hit him hard and early and Frazier might not be able to weather the storm.

 

As I said Flash the one advantage Frazier does have is his tremendous heart and will which is why he kept getting up vs Foreman.

Based on that I think he could weather the storm against a fair amount of punchers that are not on his level.

But Frazier could be a slow starter and I think there would be some punchers that may hit him hard and early and he doesn't recover.

I don't think Frazier avoided any punchers but I'm just saying we never really see him beat a KO artist. And whilst he does have a good chin he can still be hurt.

 

Completely agree.

 

Frazier ATE Ali's right hands for 41 rounds. By comparison, Lyle took the first hard right hand Ali threw in anger and fell apart, the fight was stopped moments later.

It's weird to me that a guy who is partially known for taking and eating so many punches that when people picture his face it's often as a swollen mess (Frazier) .... is having his chin questioned against guys who often folded like a folding chair when the going got rough for them.

The scenario you're painting leaves out that Frazier is going to be punching them back. Not only punching them back, but probably punching them FIRST.

None of the guys you mentioned proved to me they could remotely take what Frazier was dishing out and come away with a win over him.

 

Frazier had poor coordination between left and right fists. He was never comfortable throwing his right to an opponents head. He really needed to THINK about it as opposed to his left hook which was a second nature punch to throw and land for him. There was only one opponent, earlier on in his career, that he scored a knockdown against with his right hand. I believe Frazier holds the record, certainly at heavyweight, for least number of knockdowns caused by his right hand. Just one.

This hurts him vs all time great fighters who would do what all time great fighters do, exploit an opponents major weaknesses.

 

Look I'm not going back and forth with you because you're bored and want to instigate an argument.

I've said what I've said.

Frazier has a good chin but can be hurt and doesn't have a win against a KO artist.

He has tremendous heart and will and could beat a significant amount of punchers and weather the storm. But some could also get to him early and stop him certainly not out of the realms of possibility.

And that's my last reply goodbye.

 

He has wins against a lot of KO punchers, you just choose to ignore those and want to keep talking about "punchers" who couldn't beat Jerry Quarry or Ron Stander or even Bob Stallings (who beat Shavers and Foster).

Ali could punch. Quarry could punch. Chuvalo could punch. Bonavena could punch.

Frazier took a thousand or more head shots in those eight combined fights and beat all of those guys.

Again, the scenario you're painting leaves out that Frazier is also going to be punching them back. Not only punching them back, but probably punching them FIRST.

None of the guys you mentioned (Shavers, Foster, Lyle) proved they could remotely take what Frazier was dishing out and come away with a win over him.

It's a fight. BOTH guys get to punch.

That's all.

 

Tommy Morrison