Name me a 190lber who could beat Tunney.

They were second rate? Then name me 10 heavyweights of the second half of the 1910's that were clearly better than Langford and Jeannette.

As for fearing what Dempsey might have done to them, you need not worry, because he ran out of the ring like a ***** when Jeanette stepped between the ropes in his presence.

Based on what was Firpo the #2 HW? For "beating" a Miske on his deathbed while also losing to him? For losing to Greb, who Dempsey wanted no part of either? His heavyweight credentials are **** poor and you know it. Another easy pickings fight.

The fact that Firpo and an unproven LHW, along with 4 other LHW's make up the top10 says a lot of about the sorry state of the heavyweight division back then. And that's not even taking into account the shitting on the black part of the division by Dempsey.

Miske was not outstanding during their first fights, he was decent, nothing special. In which, by the way, Miske more than held his own and fought to a rightful draw over 10. In 1921 he was terminally ill and a 9-1 (!!!!!) underdog because of it... another easy pickings fight.


Yes, Carpentier was the LHW champ, but my point is that so many guys he fought were lightheavies.


By the way, what happened last time Carpentier fought a "second rater" in Jeannette? Can we say Carpentier is a third rater then?

 

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I strongly disagree that Dempsey was not past his prime v.s. Tunney. He was six years past his prime. He has highly inactive. He lived a high life in Hollywood . He was no where near the 1919 Dempsey. He lacked the legs and reflexes.

I have always said I just don't know how great Dempsey was because he basically stopped being an active fighter in 1920. Plus he did not fight Wills. I have watched as much Tunney footage as I can find over and over again and find him to be a hell of a fighter inhis own right. I have also watched as much Dempsey / Tunney footage as exists, digitally taped right off Classic, time and again in slow motion to really try and anaylize these two. I personally feel the prime Dempsey and a prime Tunney would have very tough , competitive fights but I can see Dempsey coming out on top over 15 ..

Talk about ducking black fighters, Tunney never fought 1 ...if we go by that, and we should, everychamp from Sullivan to Louis excluding Johnson is very much open to question. And they are ...

 

Tunney was the only man to stop Gibbons. Dempsey couldn't over 15 rounds. He also stopped Madden, who went 15 with Wills, and was only ever stopped once more in his career in his 6th fight.

 

Firpo never fought Miske or Greb .:huh Carpentier was 20 years old when he lost a contraversial dec to Jeannette and was 167 lbs to Jeannette's 183lbs.Hate ,Hate, Hate,it can eat you up.

 

Actually, you need to include Jeffries in your list, if anything at the expense of or at least as well as Johnson. He fought great black fighters. The only ones he didnt really fight, simply were not good enough to fight him (at the time he was fighting).

 

Can someone please fillme in on the Jeanette / Dempsey story ... I have heard fragments of versions but never got it straight ...

 

As far as I know Dempsey arrived to a scheduled fight, the person he was supposed to fight wasn't there and Joe Jeannette had taken their place at the last second. Kearns didn't want Dempsey to fight Jeanette so they left.

 

You can zoom in on that. It is interesting to note that despite this being in the late 1910's, the title says "Dempsey hides behind "color" line". The quoted color clearly indicates that it's being used as an excuse. I guess that puts the final nail in the coffin of the myth that Dempsey didn't hide behind the color line.

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Good story, but it's hardly much of a knock against Dempsey or his manager.

I mean, which great heavyweights ever turned up for a routine fight and found a much better fighter (leading contender) as an (unagreed) replacement at LITERALLY the last minute, and then followed through with the fight ?

I cant think of any.
I

 

Pontius is a great poster ,but less than objective about Dempsey imo.

 

Tunney was certainly for focused and disciplined than Billy Conn. Tunney didn't have the swagger and the hot blood of Conn, that's for sure. I tend to esteem Gene Tunney more than is the trend nowadays in this forum, and I don't think that his never facing a Black opponent is reason enough to downgrade him like so many posters have done, on the contrary, I believe that he was a great fighter, both defensively, as well as strategically and had a world class chin on top of that. He very well could have defeated Louis. He definitely would have stayed on course better than Billy did, and if he was hurt, or decked, would have dealt with it the same way he did against Dempsey, minus the long count, of course.

 

Oh, and as to the topic of the thread, no, there wasn't a 190 pounder that would take Tunney, that is right off the top of my head. I can't think of one, or a lightheavy really, for that matter. Charles and Moore would be the most likely candidates, but really, both would have their hands full with a fast, defensively sound, DISCIPILINED boxer like Tunney.