Does anyone know if Nat ever did an all-time p4p list? I’ve seen his top 10 lists for each weight class up until his death but I’d also be interested in a p4p list if he ever compiled one.
Just as an FYI, here are his rankings from Ring Magazine in 1972, the year he passed away. Heavyweights: 1 - Jack Johnson 2 - James J. Jeffries 3 - Bob Fitzsimmons 4 - Jack Dempsey 5 - James J. Corbett 6 - Joe Louis 7 - Sam Langford 8 - Gene Tunney 9 - Max Schmeling 10- Rocky Marciano Light Heavyweights: 1 - Kid McCoy 2 - Philadelphia Jack O'Brian 3 - Jack Dillon 4 - Tommy Loughran 5 - Jack Root 6 - Battling Levensky 7 - Georges Carpentier 8 - Tom Gibbons 9 - Jack Delaney 10- Paul Berlenbach Middleweights: 1 - Stanley Ketchell 2 - Tommy Ryan 3 - Harry Greb 4 - Mickey Walker 5 - Ray Robinson 6 - Frank Klaus 7 - Billy Papke 8 - Les Darcy 9 - Mike Gibbons 10- Jeff Smith Welterweights: 1 - Joe Walcott 2 - Mysterious Billy Smith 3 - Jack Britton 4 - Ted Kid Lewis 5 - Dixie Kid 6 - Harry Lewis 7 - Willie Lewis 8 - Henry Armstrong 9 - Barney Ross 10- Jimmy McLarnin Lightweights: 1 - Joe Gans 2 - Benny Leonard 3 - Owen Moran 4 - Freddy Welsh 5 - Battling Nelson 6 - George Kid Lavigne 7 - Tony Canzoneri 8 - Willie Ritchie 9 - Lew Tendler 10- Ad Wolgast Featherweights: 1 - Terry McGovern 2 - Jim Driscoll 3 - Abe Attell 4 - Willie Pep 5 - Johnny Dundee 6 - Young Griffo 7 - Johnny Kilbane 8 - Kid Chocolate 9 - George K.O. Chaney 10- Louis Kid Kaplan Bantamweights: 1 - George Dixon 2 - Pete Herman 3 - Kid Williams 4 - Eder Jofre 5 - Joe Lynch 6 - Bud Taylor 7 - Johnny Coulon 8 - Frankie Burns 9 - Eddie Campi 10- Panama Al Brown Flyweight: 1 - Jimmy Wilde 2 - Pancho Villa 3 - Frankie Genaro 4 - Fidel La Barba 5 - Benny Lynch 6 - Elky Clark 7 - Johnny Buff 8 - Midget Wolgast 9 - Peter Kane 10- Pascual Perez
I did see a list of his p4p ranking and the only one I recall is that he had Jack Johnson #1 on this list as well as heavyweight.
Ok, wow, I guess he was really high on Jack Johnson to make him #1 p4p. I don’t really agree with his ratings, as he definitely seems biased to guys from the 1890s and early 1900s, but I do always find them interesting.
Hmm....that's interesting because Nat's Black Diamond series was kind of stolen from Richard K. Fox's The Lives and Battles of Famous Black Pugilists. Fox was a promoter and Journalist active from the late 1800s to the early 1900s. I always thought that was because Nat didn't care too much about the era, but now I'm think he just had a lot of respect for Fox's work and didn't see any reason to change it much.
One thing that I don’t get is his rating of Mysterious Billy Smith as the second best welterweight of all time. I admittedly am not an expert on Smith, but the guy has a record of 35-22-26 per Boxrec (34-25-27 with 5 NCs according to Wikipedia). And this list was made in 1972, well after the careers of guys like SRR and Henry Armstrong. Is there something I’m missing here?
I, too, always found his opinions and ratings interesting even if I didn't agree. He saw most of the fighters he evaluated, ranging from the early days up until his death in 1972. Not many who can make that kind of claim. He indeed was big on Jack Johnson. He once wrote that upon hearing that Fleischer had named him his #1 heavy of all time, Johnson said to him "Thank you, Nat. That's the nicest thing anybody ever said to me." Not too long before he died, Johnson wrote a 'confession' to throwing the title fight to Willard in Havana in 1915. Fleischer never believed the confession and bought it from Johnson for $250. He did so because Johnson needed money and Fleischer wanted to prevent him from further disgracing himself. That sum of money around 1945 must have been significant!
Please to explain the solidity of ranking Gene Tunney and his non-existent heavyweight pedigree above Marciano? How even is it possible to rank Jeffries, or even Johnson, over Joe Louis? What heavyweights did they defeat who could compare to Louis' resume? I actually respect some of the non-heavy rankings but how is Tunney not ranked at lightheavy but for the few fights he fought at heavy? And Greb not ranked at lightheavy when he defeated so many great ones (some who are listed) in that division? Or Armstrong only in one division? And Robinson didn't make his welter cut?
When it came to his All-Time Rankings, Fleischer had a policy of rating the fighters in only one division. As for Robinson, in the beginning he actually rated him at welter (#5, or thereabouts, if I remember correctly) but switched him to middle sometime during the 50s.
I can't help but notice, that in 4 of the 8 divisions Langford met Fleischer's #1 (Gans, Walcott, Ketchel, Johnson)... and in a 5th division he fought #2 (O'Brien) Those are some serious ATGs to have on your CV!
