Never underestimate the bum of the month

There's also a small dose in Ghosts Of Manilla, which I'll bet you've read.

Also, contempary accounts are often suspicious. Though there's no meat on the bones.

I will say this - there's surprisngly little known about Liston's state of mind between the two fights. He seems to have dropped of the face of the earth media wise. Although there are bits and bobs in exsistance it tends to be testimony from his inner circle. If you've got anything Conteh, or anyone else, let me have a reference or a summary, i'd be grateful.

 

Three possibilities: an accident.

Intentional, but without Liston's knowledge. It's unlikely that the cornerman would say "LET'S PUT SOME **** IN HIS EYES - HERE, IT'S ON YOUR GLOVES NOW!"

Or you are quite right and Liston knew the score.

 

Again - a fair position. But again, I don't see Liston missing Ali as proof that Liston was trying to hit Ali as hard as he could.

I don't agree. Why would the fact that the fight is easy mean that Liston would allow Ali to hover his jab in his face? Why not do what he normally does with an incoming jab? Because it's an easy fight? That doesn't add up.

I've been interested in this area for many years, and while I don't run a dumptruck over the accepted reality there are some areas where it runs so threadbare as to be naked. Your position is that Liston, after headhunting and missing by a close margin for the opening rounds decides, when he has his opponent at the mercy of his head shots, to a greater extent than in all of those rounds, decides to go for the body? He's after Ali's head - Ali goes blind - and he then decides to shift to the body? Because he's been missing?

One of two things here: Liston's choice is pitiful or this argument makes no sense. No other explanation will do.

That is your position - mine is that it is possible that there might not be the enormous distance between these fighters in terms of talent as there appeared to be on fight night.

Do you really think the two cases have that much in common? If so, how does one help to explain the other? Some people think Duran **** himself, some don't - I think Sonny may have been fixed - most don't. I think that's the most that can be said about this.

All of this may be true - or it may be true that the round Ali couldn't see for would have been close, like the others. The tactic you describe for Ali is perfectly reasonable. Of course, many other have tried it against Sonny & Sonny would have expected it.

Well yeah, that's all true. Of course it is obvious there was something wrong with the second fight. My point was, I find people who can be so sure the 1st wasn't fixed, when they are sure the second was, curious. I would like to know where that surity comes from. Liston has future history in this department, with exactly the same managment team, exactly the same opponent, at around the same age, with similair odds, and exactly the same problems with his life. IF the first fight was thrown it wasn't thrown so cleanly and obviously - that doesn't mean it wasn't so.

Granted - but done by the same men in the same circumstances. Consider this - how would Liston have looked had he had to throw the fight in round 6? How different would the fight have looked? What would Liston have done differently if he HAD been told ten minutes before he went out to ditch in the 6th? And not as regards the 6th round - but what went before.

How so? Are you sure this would be the case for those around him? If so, how?

Then there is the fact of his physical age, which he lied about, but was still nearing the upper limit for a prize fighter at that time.

This makes a fix MORE likely, not less. Such a situation would have to be in place to achieve the necessary odds and make the venture prophitable.

Not to you - not to me - and not to that commentator. But to the guys who worked with him in the gym? To the mafia runners? To those inside? His poor training camp may have been enough to bring this about when the massive money to be made became apparent.

There is NO QUESTION AT ALL in my mind that something like this was in the pipe for the Liston. They either got the timing wrong - and didn't have Liston take a dive until the rematch and lost a lot of money - or right and asked Liston to take a dive v Ali in round 6 of the first fight, and made a lot of money.

I thought i'd already covered this with him - to paraphrase. Liston has an iron jaw. Ali is only a good puncher. Liston waits for a shot to come that is hard enough to fall to and it doesn't come. Ding-ding. Oh ****. This actually helps to explain the ridiculous punch Liston selected to fall to in the fight you do beleive is fixed.

Again, I don't consider the fact that Liston missed Ali proof that he was trying to knock it out - or that he wasn't. I will say this. That performance was the worst I have ever seen Liston give. Do you consider it so? If so, how can you be so certain that Liston was giving his best? It is perfectly reasonable to say Ali made him look that bad - perfectly - but how can you be so certain?

I've watched that fight until it's coming out of my ears. I do feel there is a dispute to be had.

Again, I don't feel missed punches form proof. Again, what would the fight have looked like if Liston was trying to throw it in 6? Would he have thrown zero punches? Or some punches which all missed? The later, obviously.

Thanks for saying that, and don't think I am trying to run down the opinion you hold. I would just suggest that there is enough that you don't hold onto it quite so tightly.

Yes. The FBI has caught up to the mafia in these past decades - their results as far as money laundering (the most likely cause for a fix if there was one - absolutley horrible if you think about it) and crooked betting was not special in the sixties.

 

That's a beaut.

I'll tell you what it is - it's like, everything i've read about Liston in that time is from a "source in the camp". Do you see what I mean? It's like no-one pinned him down properly for an interview, or even a proper press confrence. It's a little uncanny considering all that had gone on.

I suspect there may not be anything. Like he was gone even before that second fight.

That Beatles story, you can imagine why Liston wouldn't be into it. Fannying about with the Beatles - old people and kids blah blah but not hippy types, that wouldn't be his speed I don't think.

 

I was wondering would I hear from you about this again!

First up let me say once more that i'm not insiting up on any of this.

Also, well laid out argument, nice.

Again, I just can't see a fighter missing as proof that he was trying to hit someone. These guys work in 1/8 inches.

In round 5 Ali just hangs it there. Ali did make it happen. To unmake it all Liston has to do is pat the top of Ali's glove away. He would also probably get to throw his right of the back of this move. He doesn't bother.

I'm not actually advocating a jabbing contest - although Liston's jab is perhaps his best punch and you raise an interesting point. Liston may have abandoned it for round one or two for the reasons you outline but he was pretty adaptable. Why no counter-jabbing from Liston when he hits trouble?

Well, it's interesting. I see him winging to the body in this round more than in any other round which is how we get onto the topic I guess. Whilst i'm not denying Liston went to the head too, this body word is unusual for Liston v an upset opponent. He uses bodywork to CAUSE the upset usually, then goes for the KO. I feel that Liston going for the body v the distressed Ali MORE in this round than in other rounds is a little odd.

Nothing would look odder. That should be answer enogh, but as an aside, i've no doubt that Liston wanted to hurt Ali.

Yes Liston always plodded a bit. He often looked clumsy but there were things he did even AFTER the second Ali fight that he did not do in either one of those contest - moved his head after throwing a punch, feints with his feet (mainly), jabbing, and most of all, most stark in it's ommision, a devastating two fisted attack to body and head when he had his man backed up that little bit awkward. Seriouly, why does Liston not come out and go, "**** it, i'm going to attack this guy regardless of the fact that he's going to hit me loads, it's time". Most fightrers ran from Liston and these were the techniques he employed(amongst others) to destroy them anyway. I see none of them in the fight.

At no time does Liston decide that he's going to get hit and bore in. IT'S FREAKISH.

I'd direct you towards Liston-McMurray if you're interested in seeing Liston fight post-Ali in this manner. He looks bigger, stronger and faster than he did for either Ali fight and the two fisted attack he uses to end it is as deadly as anything i've ever seen in the heavyweight ring. McMurray runs for the entire fight, possibly even wins a round, then gets starched in a brutal KO.

Liston looks very good, if not quite the fighter he was as challenger.

Fair enough. We can certianly agree on the quitting part.

The title was still up for grabs. If the mob wanted a heavyweight title badly enough, why the fix second time around? Everything you say about Liston's percieved ability is still true (he was still a betting favourite).

I don't really know how you can say that Liston was out of shape on the one hand and that those who were closest to him would not have noticed he was on the slide on the other.

Very well. But I'm sure we can both agree that he was ageing in terms of the era according to his offical age, that he was older than he told people he was and that he himself may not have known how old he was.

Dead wrong. Liston was almost certainly losing the mob money by this stage. If you wanted to place a bet in NY city (and most of the rest of the east coast) you saw a mob bookie. Absolutley nobody was betting against Liston, everyone was betting for him and had been for a long time. 5-1 were the odds for Valdes on the street, unheard of for two ranked heavyweights I think. People - the wrong people - were clearing up on him. How much money the mob moved out of town to place on their man is up for debate - but the mob doesn't like %, regardless.

For the 1st Ali fight - Liston biggest - the managers end was about 400k. Liston's end was to be the same, but he had a couple of mob "seconds", a trainer etc. to pay for, let's say the mob lifted another 70k out of Liston's end. Great. Lovely.

But what if he loses? That's a %. And how to cover the betting expense? Because I promise you, Liston was costing some powerful grassroots types a lot of money every time he fought. And none of the Liston money would have been trickling down to them.

Liston had no manager of note. That 400k just evaporated. Here's why.

No. Not really. Not as far as these guys are concerned.

There were two men who really "owned" Liston, Frankie Carbo aka "The Gray", who was the closest thing the US had to a master criminal at that time, and Blinky Palermo, probably Carbo's underboss. Now, Tosches, "Night Train" paints Carbo as a guy who enjoyed the bauble that was the world heavyweight title but wasn't that interested and really only saw the money. John Dickie in "Cosa Nostra: The History of the Sicilian Mafia" he is painted as cooler than that: bottom line only. The truth will be in between. But I think Palermo liked it.

None of this mattered though when the FBI caught up to them on unrelated matters. Carbo was looking at life, Palermo went on the run (and was actually free during the first fight I think) but eventually got 15 years.

When a top mobster goes to jail, he MUST consolidate. What was his when he went in becomes a % deal - he gets to keep this % of that, this % of the next. What is unoquivically his? That is the only question that matters. Once The Gray got caught, once Palermo went on the run the power, the status means less than nothing at all: it is literally valueless - time to cash in.

This, I think, is the reason for the Ali throw - even if these guys thought Liston had 15 years left in him, even if he was 19, even if he made twice the money he did at gate, chances are that they would have made the move right then and there. Even at crap odds, and they were getting tremendous odds, huge odds.

Liston himself knew he had to throw one. He told Cox (sparring partner and buddy) he "would have to lose one sooner or later". Why not this one, Chris?

I think anyone with a business degree, taking his clients (Palermo, Carbo) circumstances into account would give advice to arrange the fall.