Never wases: Buddy Baer vs Cleveland Williams

Subtle bump and sympathy post, eh?

Nah, it's an alright idea.

I really haven't seen enough of Buddy to form a really concrete opinion of the man. Both liked to infight, though Williams seemed better on the outside to me, and was generally more explosive and athletic, perhaps harder hitting as well. Very fast starter, and threw well to body and head. Baer was more of the brawling, mauling type, and someone who seemed to impose his strength on you from the get go. Pretty good left hand, when he threw it in combination.

I'm arguing from a bit of a position of ignorance here, but I guess if Buddy can make his superior size and strength count and tie Celeveland up on the inside he might be able wear him down with those short chopping hooks and body shots. On the other hand, if the faster and sharper punching Cleveland can catch Buddy coming in he might be able to stun him and stop him early. Hard to say really. Big fight temperament might be the deciding factor here, and Cleveland was a little lacking in that department.

 

50/50 fight, both men could win by ko

 

Cleveland's hand speed is the difference here, I think. He had a fast jab against anybody who wasn't a peak Ali, and that nice quick hook. Twice, he got the jump on Liston before Sonny turned it around. Buddy was big and powerful, but raw, not terrifically skilled, and not somebody likely to decision top opposition if he couldn't produce a stoppage. The Big Cat has more ways to win. Unlike many big punchers, he produced a number of dominant decision wins over quality opposition, and his stamina was far, far better established than Buddy's. Cleveland has much the deeper resume.

Before he was shot, only a peak Liston was able to stop him in originally scheduled bouts he had trained specifically for. [The other stoppage saw him victimized as 20 year old substitute fodder for veteran bomber Satterfield.]

I don't believe any version of Buddy takes the Big Cat at his best.

 

the other stoppage was a that he lost by ko against a bum, and no excuse here

 

I am going for Williams to start fast and win by ko in the 2nd

 

Okay, does that mean you'd take Buddy Baer over him then?:think [Or will you stick to 50/50?]

Although he was already 31-1-0 at that stage, Cleveland's only victory over any opponent with a winning record of consequence was a ten round decision over Omelio Agramonte a year earlier. He was less than two weeks removed from avenging his only previous defeat with a seventh round knockout.

Satterfield was a nine year veteran of 51 bouts. Chinny, but also extremely dangerous, he held first round wipe-outs over Oakland Billy Smith, and less than a year before Satterfield, Bob Baker for the movie cameras [on youtube]. He'd already exchanged wins with Harold Johnson, Lee Oma, and would stop John Holman twice before 1954 was out [in ten rounds and one round respectively]. Victories over Marty Marshall, Johnny Summerlin and Nino Valdes were still ahead of him. Satterfield was a hard core veteran who matched exactly three opponents with losing records at the time he faced them, over the entire duration of his 79 fight career spanning a dozen years.

Look at Bob's roster of other previous opponents. Holman Williams, LaMotta, Nick Barone [W10], Archie Moore, Maxim, Ezzard, Rex Layne [who he decked in round one, on youtube, exposing Layne as susceptible to Marciano four months later]. You're gonna make the case that Cleveland Williams, at age 20, with a record comprised primarily of opponents with ten or fewer bouts behind them, or otherwise veterans with losing records [again, Agramonte was the ONLY exception to this in the Big Cat's first 32 bouts] was truly ready for the 30 year old Satterfield as a last moment substitute? [He then took two years off, and wouldn't begin taking on winning veterans again until late 1957.]

Williams came back from his shooting to have 25 more fights over half a dozen years, and went out a winner, scoring a decision in his only scheduled 12 rounder when pushing 39. [Buddy Baer posted exactly one ten round decision win, had an eight round NWS with Lee Savold, and otherwise never won over a distance exceeding seven rounds. He's somewhat Foremanesque in that respect. Even Shavers had more proved stamina than Buddy.]

 

Williams speed would win him this.

If he came out like the first round in the first Liston fight and tries to put that on him i think he wins within 4 by KO

 

I wouldn't be shocked by it going wither way to be honest.

Both of these guys are helacious punchers, probably in the same bracket as Foreman Cooney and Bruno in more recent years, and both have chins that can be cracked.

 

I like Buddy but should be a competitive fight with a KO ending Buddy in the 10th by KO

 

noway

 

I think so.

In Williams case you can even ask the guys who shared a ring with both.