Nikolai Valuev V James J Braddock?

Braddock has better wins than Valuev, as bad as his resume is.

 

I disagree. His best win was Baer and frankly Baer sucks to begin with but that version of Baer sucked immensly. The "old Holyfield" that Valuev beat would have easily dealt with the "clown version Baer" that Braddock faced. But nevermind the times when Braddock got lucky and eked out a decision over a fighter highly rated at his time. What about the score of times Braddock failed against absolute nonentities? Valuev has demonstrated a level of consistency that Braddock could only dream of.

 

One last thing:

Valuev's resume is built on a controversial ABC title win over one top 10 RING fighter in John Ruiz, whom was on a decline after two bad performances that should have rightfully cost him his title already (King's doing, who you guys typically crap on) and someone this board...even some of you posters all in on Valuev typically crap on as a disgrace.

Valuev lost to the only other top 10 fighters he faced. The rest of his wins are over gatekeepers, journeymen, and unranked old names in bad times. And he couldn't even beat some of these guys without very controversial decisions... Donald especially. Who scored that fight for Valuev?

So, to pick this guy over genuine Champions from other eras...suggests a comical gap between the best of different eras...which is absurd. This is like picking a YouTube street baller to school Bill Russell.....you're out of your damn mind you think Valuev is some modern miracle, he was a giant who could box a little, and benefited from Don King ..whom you typically call out for this crap.

 

Barrett
Ruiz
Old Holyfield...without controversy
Gatekeeper McCline
Briggs

He might lose to Chag, and Sultan. Maybe. These guys were all gun shy and Primo is actually quicker and more mobile than Valuev.

Haye was gun shy too but I think he eventually lands his counter right and stops Primo. Haye hit hard when he landed if nothing else.

 

This isn't prime Ruiz. This is the slipping 33-35 year old Ruiz who fought Value twice, had just lost to Toney, and had just been bounced around the ring by Golota. He was losing more often than not in this period.

Ruiz of Johnson and Rahman might make it ugly enough to beat Primo. I can agree there.

 

I think it's pretty obvious that both Haye and Holyfield were very mobile against Valuev. Whether they were otherwise generally known for their mobility, doesn really matter - in this context, it's how they boxed against Valuev that matters. And I think it's very strange if someone were to claim, that two boxers who spent the majority of 12 rounds dancing circles around their opponent, didn't show a lot of mobility!

Which of course is exactly the kind of style, that would give a slow boxer like Valuev a hard time... which is my whole point. I don't know, why this is so hard to understand.

Would Braddock have turned into a defensive boxer against Valuev, staying out of trouble and avoiding his punches - while at the same time peppering him with enough fast punches from the outside, to take a decision (unless, of course, you think he would prove so superior, that he would actually stop the giant!)? Sure, anything is possible - but hardly the most likely scenario, if you ask me.

 

I would make him favorite over Ruiz, Barret, McCline, Briggs and Old Holyfield.

He might beat Chagaev or Ibragimov, but I would not have any confidence in it.

Haye I suspect is all wrong for him, but you never know.

 

Exactly. I think Chag and Iggy would be frustrating for Primo but I don't think they are as dangerous as Haye would be. Haye was timid but he typically went for the knockout eventually, even against the great Sugar Valuev...with all that size...

 

I think that a bit of historical context on Braddock might be helpful. He is the weakest of the 1930s champions in my opinion, but he is still not a champion with only one good win, like Leon Spinks or Shannon Briggs.

Now after Max Baer had smashed Max Schmeling, and ripped the title from Primo Carnera, he was understandably favored to beat any potential challenger. When it came to selecting his first title defense, the obvious challenger seemed to be Steve Hamas, who had just defeated Max Schmeling. The powers that be planned to match Steve Hamas against Art Lasky, with the winner getting the shot at Baer. Hamas refused, and made the fateful decision to take a rematch with Max Schmeling, for a bigger pay day. Schmeling promptly put a career ending beating on him, making Baer Schmeling II seem almost inevitable. In the end Schmeling's people failed to come up with the money (interesting what if), so the decision was taken to match Art Lasky against Jimmy Braddock in a title eliminator. Most people expected a fairly routine win for Lasky, but Jimmy Braddock beat him, and got the shot at Baer. I do think that Braddock deserved the chance to fight Baer for the title based on beating Lasky.

Whatever you think about Baer, he was the undisputed champion, and he had just beaten the two best heavyweights in the world back to back. He was clearly the best in the world on paper when Braddock beat him.

Braddock lost his title to Joe Louis, but there was one last meaningful fight in him. In his last fight he was matched against Tommy Farr, who had narrowly lost to Joe Louis in his previous fight. Braddock won the fight admittedly controversially, and was installed as the #2 contender, behind Max Schmeling, who still held an unavenged win over Louis at the time. Braddock chose to retire on this high note, but if he had wanted a rematch against Joe Louis, he would probably have got it.

I don't want anybody to think that I am a fanatical Braddock apologist, he is among the weaker lineal heavyweight champions. However his career is not without merit by any means.

 

I would pick Valuev by decision but I don’t think there’s much margin either way

 

I rolled my eyes at most of those names- then I realized that Valuev almost lost to 2007 Holyfield I thought they fought a lot earlier then that. Ya got me. Early 2000s Holy > Braddock but not corpse Holy. My sincere apologizes Jan.

 

Always a pleasure to debate with somebody, who is looking for the answers, as opposed to assuming that they already have all the answers.