Nikolai Valuev vs. Rocky Marciano

There's a difference in punching downwards, versus punching towards a target that's lower than your knee.

Are you saying that as long as the boxer is shorter than Valuev, they are all equally easy to hit? Rocky fought lower than every Valuev opponent, and moved his head a lot as well. He would be a very awkward target.

Rocky has challenges of his own fighting a huge giant, but I think he will be more comfortable countering out of the crouch, than Valuev would be punching a moving head at his knee level.

 

Yeah but...

Tommy Loughran vs. Impelletiere?
Carnera vs. Sharkey?
Haye vs Valuev?


The way you describe it, sounds like the smaller boxer will be huffing and puffing for air in the mid rounds. And it sounds logical. But it doesn't always play out so black and white.

 

Thank god for the internet.

From this thread:
http://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/jim-corbett-v-ken-norton15rds.568647/page-3

 

Warning:

If you say something nice about Marciano on this forum, some old slimy pig might follow you around and harass you.

 

This isn't interesting nor informative.

My analysis:

Rocky loved to fight from a crouched position. It allowed to him to:
A. Have good head movement to avoid punches, using his bent knees for dynamic control.
B. Generate heavy punches, by springing out of the crouch to maximize explosiveness and power.

As you can see in this clip of an over the hill Rocky, he has pretty great dynamic control of his crouch. He can remain in a crouch while moving around the ring, using an offbeat rhythm that juggles slips and feints.
https://streamable.com/d4dk

It's up to you as the viewer to extrapolate what you see in this clip, understand the variables and conditions under which the even occurred, and to develop an opinion on how Rocky would apply this technique as a prime athlete.

He could get very low with his crouch. https://streamable.com/9laz As you can see here, at some points the highest point in his body is probably less than 3ft. from the ground. For someone of Valuevs height, this will be an incredibly awkward target to hit. He may be tempted to lean in to reach down, leaving himself exposed.


Rocky wasn't a bumbling mess on the inside. He was actually intelligent, coordinated, and effective.

https://streamable.com/dntr
Here you can see how he can switch from an upright stance to a very low crouch. His head on the side of Joe Louis shorts. And then he moves his head to the opposite side of Louis body, forcing him backwards. And uses the momentum to land smooth, hard punches. This is a good example of the dynamic control Marciano has with his head movement and his crouch.


As for Valuev, I think Marciano would utilize his crouch mostly from the outside, and occasionally on the inside. I think he would try to bait Valuev into throwing punches that Marciano would try to slip, and counter. I think Marciano would try to get under the jab, land overhands like these: https://streamable.com/wz3s

I think Valuev would do well to contain Rocky for the beginning of the fight. But I think the pace of Rocky would cause him to slip up at some point and get caught with something hard. He may or may not not get knocked down or out, but I think he would certainly be damaged.

Valuev could try to play a really safe fight, just going to on occasional hard jab on Rocky to try an open him up with cuts. I could see him having success and or winning the fight with that strategy. But I have to favor Marciano here.

 

The man you describe, and the man I see in the video clips I've posted seem to be worlds apart. https://streamable.com/ovtd
When people describe Rocky the way you do, I cringe. It feels like I'm stuck in a Bert Sugar novel.

I like to look at boxers similarly to Max Kellerman. Being analytical, realistic, and not regurgitating outdated, inaccurate comic book descriptions of fighters.

Yes, it looks to me like Marciano had the footwork to outwork Valuev.
He had the mobility to box with Charles, Walcott, and Moore. I'm sure he could move his way around a comparatively immobile giant.

Unless you mean to insinuate that you need Loughrans footwork to outdo a giant. Does the bar for footwork required to beat a giant stop at Marciano, and start at Jack Sharkey?

 

Rocky had two left feet, leaned too much to his right, and woke up every morning in a headstand position.

 

Goldman said this when he first met Marciano, not having trained him a day. Are you telling me that for years, your opinion on a championship Marciano has hinged on a description of a pre-developed Rocky?

The Marciano we see in every piece of footage is a highly refined world class fighter. That sucks that you've been confused for such a long time. But honestly that's not my problem.

I don't claim to know more than Goldman. Your chronology is just wrong.
I'm not like Max Kellerman. I just see boxing closer through the lens of someone like him, with nuanced observations on technique, rather than someone like Bert Sugar.

Oh, and why are you questioning my integrity when you run away from a debate every time you're objectively proven wrong?