I understand what you are saying. Ali at his supposed best from 66-67 had a small sample size of opponents, and generally opponents who were not that good. It's easier to look good, and great, against inferior competition. I am not convinced that Ali would do as well against extremely talented men who were significantly bigger... but there aren't many of those even 3 generations later. Also, he seemed less than impervious to swarmers. For instance, I imagine a Chagaev would give him a harder time than a prime Pinklon, all because of style. Could a 67 Ali beat any heavy ever? Absolutely. Would he? Probably not.
I would favour '67 Ali against any fighter in the ring ever. That doesn't mean he's unbeatable, it's just that in a head to head, Ali's skills, athleticism and intelligence should give him a great chance against anyone in history.
Hard disagree, but I can see where you're coming from. The only thing is that this Ali is too fast for Frazier, who had to fight his heart out against a much weaker Ali.
He's not unbeatable, but the guy who beats him either isn't born yet or died before video cameras were invented.
I agree to disagree on this point. Ali was under 30 and had two tune ups against more than legitimate contenders. Bonavena actually knocked Joe down once or twice, and Ali stopped him, hard (something Joe couldn't do). The FOTC Ali wasn't the man he was a few years earlier, but there was nobody on earth as good as him (besides Frazier) at the time. Watch what he did to Frazier in the early rounds. I contend no one else could have stood up to that blistering barrage. Ali was in incredible shape and, though not as fast of hand and foot, was still devastating. He would have kicked the hell out of anyone today, for sure. But that's just some old guy's opinion.
Ali would still have thrown those complex combinations, but his foot movement was significantly faster in the 1960's. He also had better endurance-he tired & lost in FOTC due to the later rounds. He had both lost some blazing speed, & needed more than 2 tune up fights after years out of the ring & getting relatively out of shape. It stands to reason that he would do better in 1966/67. It is not so much "run", as being more elusive. He would still ship significant punishment, but less, & not losing steam late would be crucial. He was only 3 less than 3 lbs. heavier in FOTC, & marginally more body fat-any small increase in upper body mass must have been offset by losing a bit of lower body muscle associated with being less springy. Absolutely anyone is beatable anytime. Ali would be among the very hardest to defeat before his exile from boxing.
I agree to disagree but I respect your opinion. I really do not pay any attention to the modern heavyweights, too much drama, too many divas.
As I have always said, Yank Durham knew what he was doing in 1967 by not allowing Joe Frazier fight then champion Muhammad Ali, he waited for Ali's legal battles to play out, his fighter gained more experience, while Ali developed ring rust, as you know activity in the ring is impossible without a boxing license.
I disagree. Their are multiple fighters I'd give better chances to than Holmes. Frazier being one of them.
I agree completely about Frazier, I think he would have always been a major problem for Ali. Ali also punched lighter in the 60s, so it would have been even harder to keep Smokin' Joe off of him. I think Holmes would have lost, but it would have been either a still-close UD or SD. Larry would have been super bothered by Ali's jab and would have found himself displeasingly beaten to the punch on manifold occasions. Even at his greatest, Holmes didn't like that kind of thing, it threw his rhythm off. I think the 1980 Holmes would start finding the range and looking great in the mid and very last rounds of a 15, but Ali would take too many overall for the former to win from any kind of decisive perspective.
No fighter is unbeatable. Ali had many flaws as a boxer, but his speed, reflexes and stamina masked those flaws and helped him win many fights. Tyson is the one I favor the most to outpoint or stop Ali. He matches Ali's hand speed, has knocking power in both hands, has a great defense with side to side movement, can switch angles, has a good chin. Holyfield is second. The other guys I think can outpoint Ali are Holmes, Frazier, Bowe, Lewis, W. Klitschko and Fury.
