Nobody that drew the colour line should be considered a lineal champion

My thoughts? the lineal champion is nothing more than a line of succession passed from man to man; you place your own value on what it means and what it's worth. But there is no rationale to justify what you're saying really. I'm sure you don't value it highly which is why you made this thread. yeah

 

Let's say we buy this premise and that originally there was a clear coloured champ and a clear white champ, with no world champion. I can kind of accept that.

Johnson unified the two championships and then linearity would follow on from him, even tho a clear colour line was still drawn.

So are you saying the champion should then be stripped? Because that goes against the very concept of linearity.

 

I agree with swarmer. All linearity says is that a man is champion until he loses retires his claim or loses it in the ring.

Linearity does not determine who the original champ is, nor what any criteria should be to decide a champ. It just says that the currently recognised champ will remain as such until he loses or retires his claim, that's it.

 

Politics should not re-write history. If drawing the colour line is a way to discredit a fighter's lineage. Then what about all them fighters (black one's included), who took a pay day in Apartheid South Africa???

No black man won a British title, until Dick Turpin, so should we punish all British title holders pre WWII?

The USA did not sort its civil rights out for a long period, perhaps we should strip all American title holders, say pre 1960?

 

The point is that it's just something that's handed down, like being Zorro. Just because you don't fight some particular Spaniard doesn't mean you can't carve your Z's into walls. Modern fighters duck too. The only difference now is that said ducking is characterized by pricing themselves out or signing a fight quickly with someone else. If the heart of the problem is avoiding fighters with ability? Still rampant, and it always will be.

 

Linear titles are based on who beat who. The titles are won and lost in the ring. The lineage is the lineage.
Who was ducked and why doesn't come into it.

 

Given that you are going to recognise a lineage at all, you cannot disqualify certain fighters on that lineage because they drew the colour bar or avoided certain contenders. If you were to atempt to do so, you would effectivley be rewriting history, and the inevitable result would be chaos.

The lineage effectivley came into being when the British and American titles were unified. Thereafter you have a recognised lineage up to the present day. To strip a lieal champion retrospectivley, would be like saying that King Henry VII was never realy king because his claim lacked legitimacey. The reality is that he was king.

 

I AGREE, racists like Jack Dempsey are fraudulent champions of white north-america. :deal

Dempsey DUCKED teh best h2h fighters of his era, who all happened to be blacks - Wills, Greb, Langford And even Oldman Johnson were better then teh shitty bums he did fight. :deal

 

This is relevant how?

You might not think much to King James I's claim to the throne, but its still an absolute reality that he was the king. He could still click his fingers and have your head cut off.

We are talking about a historical event here, not a matter of interpretation. It dosn't matter what you think of Jack Dempseys title claim. He was the champion!

 

How about the all the Eastern Bloc and South African fighters who were excluded from the titles at various times in the 20th century?

For me, the lineal title does not begin until Lewis' first reign.

 

I voted "agree", but there are many things coming in to this. Should Sullivan be seen as the first champion at all, ducking Jackson and whatnot? Louis is actually the first who behaved like a champion in my eyes; i e taking on the deserving contenders. I'm quite happy with having him as the first HW champion, since it was a bit of a sham before him, to be honest. Even though they are in black and white. And even though Dempsey would beat first Haye, then Wladimir and have a proper work-out after that.

What I can say, no one drawing the colour line should be called a world champion at all. That's the answer that really matters.

 

Dempsey himself belonged to both a racial and religious minority. His father Hiram was part Choctaw, his mother Celia part Cherokee, (making Louis, who Bivins called "Big Red" the second part Cherokee HW Champion). Jack was also nominally Mormon, and he was the first HW Champion to have ever resided in Harlem (however briefly).

He never denied his Indian heritage, was photographed with Indians wearing that regalia, and would probably be promoted in more recent times as Danny and Ernie Lopez were. (Conversely, Burley and Ali were part Irish.)

 

So the only lineal champions are Lewis & Rahman?

 

Didn't 'duck' jackson until he was way past it, was forced to pick essentially between jackson and corbett, and got schooled. And Louis himself, as much as i love him, arguably ducked a few black fighters himself. They didnt end up panning out the way they might have, but he certainly took his liberties with Ray, Sheppard, Bivins, and co. Jack Johnson the same.