Norton v Lyle?

I still believe that Ken Norton couldn't match up well with the big heavyweight punchers of the 1970s. He was taken out in short order by George Foreman, Earnie Shavers and Gerry Cooney. It wouldn't have been any different for Norton if he fought Joe Frazier or Ron Lyle on his best day. Yes, Norton did stop Jerry Quarry, but the latter was going downhill by 1975 and was only a good puncher, not a great one.

Norton did match up decently against boxer-types such as Muhammad Ali , Jimmy Young and Larry Holmes. In fact, a case can be made that Norton got a raw deal in his last two bouts with Ali and the bout with Larry Holmes. But Norton never could win in a decisive manner in all of his bouts with Ali, Holmes and Young. Keep in mind that the bouts with Ali, Young and Holmes literally made Norton's reputation as a top heavyweight of the 1970s. That isn't much to go on.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Norton has no case for a raw deal against Holmes. That fight is easy to score and outside of a few exciting rounds Holmes handles Norton with ease (and this is coming from a guy who isnt a big fan of either). I thought he lost to Young and Chuck is spot on with his point that Norton's rep is basically made off of giving better fighters problems without really convincingly beating them. To me thats more of an indictment of him rather than proof that he was special.

 

Lyle by KO. Norton was a decent contender, but very overrated. Give him a boxer and his weird style disrupts their timing and he has some success. Give him a puncher or strong boxer-puncher and he'll fold like a lawn chair. Lyle was a strong boxer-puncher.

Lyle by KO within 5, imho.

 

Take a look at the prominent heavyweights of the 1970s. They include Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Larry Holmes, Ken Norton, Jerry Quarry, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Jimmy Young, Joe Bugner and Mike Weaver. Of all the mentioned fighters, Norton is close to being the only one who needed to be carefully managed because he simply couldn't deal with big punchers. As noted before, Norton had few, if any, decisive victories against top heavyweights.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Cosell and ABC fabricated controversy by replaying the final round after it became known that all three judges somehow had it even after 14. But Mercante, Sr. had it right during the live broadcast, that Norton would have to knock Larry out to win after ten rounds. Holmes was smarter than Witherspoon would later prove to be, took nothing for granted, and kept his foot on the pedal.

 

This would have been an easy fight for Lyle. Norton is over rated. Quarry was washed-up when they fought. Ledoux was cheated out of a KO. Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney, all power-hitters, handled him easily and quickly. Lyle would have done the same.

 

I'm going with Lyle. Norton didn't have the kind of Power needed to break him down, nor the boxing ability that Ali had to do what he did to Ron. A good fight, but one that ends with Lyle as the winner.

 

Good, interesting match up this one, where a case can me made for both guys to win.

I've got to say reading this thread that I think Norton in some posts is getting treated somewhat harshly. His losses to Foreman, Shavers & Cooney are getting mentioned, but Ken was well over the hill for the last 2, and lost to what I consider the best ever version of Foreman - full of confidence after crushing Frazier, but before his confidence & aura was destroyed by Ali.

Similarly, the Foreman Lyle faced was not the same fighter confidence wise that destroyed Norton.

Lyle also fought Cooney when similarly over the hill like Norton, but I haven't seen this loss held against Lyle the same way...?

Lyle was also stopped by Ali whereas Ali never came close to kayoing Norton. Iirc Norton was pretty consistently ranked higher than Lyle at the time and was generally perceived to be the better fighter at the time, it only seems to be hindsight where this perception has altered imo.

Anyway that's my rant over!

As to the match itself, I think either could win on points and either could win by stoppage, it could depend on the distance. Over 10 Lyle's chances are better than they would be over 15. I believe that if Lyle doesn't get Norton out of there early 9assuming Ron would take such a gamble), I think Ken hits hard enough to make Ron show respect as the fight goes on. Gun to my head - Norton on points.

 

How is Norton overrated at all? Nobody has him top 10, but he easily is top 20, a very good fighter. Skilled, muscular/modern sized, he was 40-4 with mostly KO's (even with the Ali robbery Ali) when, a little past his peak, he lost a squeaker to Holmes. He fought during a great era for boxing, beat Ali & Young, TKO Quarry & Kirkman, the then 28-0 Bobick...

This is not remotely a "mediocre" fighter. He did enough in a tough glamor division & in historic battles to merit the HOF.

Now I agree that Lyle could blow him out early, otherwise Norton takes it, I think the latter more likely.

Lyle was not as effective a KO artist as Foreman, but hit very hard indeed. Now George had done nothing for 15 months or so besides the fighting 5 men in one night Montreal showcase,, & Lyle got a break when one round accidentally was ended at 2 minutes when being clobbered.

But Foreman names 3 men as hitting the hardest (he never fought Shavers), the kind of punches that do not hurt so much as numb you immediately. Williams, Lyle, & Cooney.

 

I see Lyle backing him up. And Kenny simply has to go forward to be effective. The other big problem is Norton's defense is wide open for a left hook and that's the most effective punch Lyle threw.

I'd like the Norton chances much better if he could take away the left hook of Lyle. but I definately think that punch comes over the top of that cross armed defense and there won't be a bag of tricks for Kenny to turn to defensively or footwork wise to avoid the follow up shots.

That wide looping right hand to the body from way out on the outside Kenny threw a lot is the wrong punch against that left hook also.

I think it goes maybe 5 rounds. Once hurt, it's all over for Norton.

 

Another thing people are forgetting is that Lyle sparred Norton in the early 1971 at Joe Frazier's gym before even turning pro and wasnt embarrassed. Anyone who doesnt think Lyle was a big banger should see what he was doing in the amateurs. His knockout of Duane Bobick was an especially brutal one round, one punch KO. He damn near killed Bobick. Here is Bobick talking about it.

“Against Lyle, I threw a jab, and bringing it back, I told myself, ‘you’re making a mistake, your defense is too low.’ The next thing that I remember, I was standing alone outside of the arena in minus 25-degree weather. I didn’t know what had happened to me. Later, I talked with my trainer about it,” said Bobick.

“He told me that I had been unconcious in the ring for 10 minutes. Then, apparently, when I came to, they brought me back to the dressing room and I asked for the key to my locker, which would have been fine, except that it was a combination lock. Finally, I convinced everyone that I was alright, so they allowed me to shower, dress and leave on my own. It wasn’t until I had got outside, and the cold hit me, that I came to and told myself that I must have been knocked out.”

 

As someone said before i think this one depends on how lyle approaches it. Although Lyle had tremendous power he was also a good boxer and only fought Foreman the way he did as more of a statement of not giving ground to the big bad bully. Although Ali had beat him, he out thought Foreman and Ron wanted to
out muscle him. Taking on Norton i think Lyle would be confident of out boxing him. The first few rounds of a 15 rounder would be a cagey affair (imo) with Norton taking the majority. Although Norton wasn't known as a massive ko puncher he had power, enough to keep Lyle honest anyway. Lyle would come into it in the mid rounds and this is where i think the fight could go 2 ways. Lyle either comes on strong and stops Norton or he continues to try and box into the later rounds and this is where Nortons greater conditioning (imo) comes into play. From here on in i don't see Norton losing, be it by late stoppage or a points win Norton takes this one.

 

He outboxed Ali three times .. at best the second fight was a draw .. he did it starting with a fast and hard jab .. very under rated .. Norton was a skilled fighter ..

That being said he had far more skills that Shavers and froze up as well .. Lyle was slower than Shavers and a slower started as well but very big and strong and a murderous puncher .. Since I never saw Norton defeat a super hard punching big man I'd have to favor Lyle but maybe Ken surprises and outboxes him .. certainly possible .