Norton VS Ali II

Fair enough. I think we agree on many points. What the difference boils down to is this, rightly or wrongly Ali literally needed only one more round, to get the decision against Norton in the first fight, and judging how superior he was in TFOTC, I'd venture Ali had more than a single round in him to get the decision, and actually has a decent shot at stopping Norton the way he fought.

While on the other hand, I'm not very much convinced at all that the Ali of the second Norton bout, could've beaten Frazier of FOTC, and I'm damn sure Frazier wouldn't have been taken to an SD when he ud'd a much superior version of Ali.

Yes Ali was rusty, and seriously lacking ring time, and his prior speed, but imo that fight was one of his best performances in the 70s despite losing. He would've beaten many ATGs that night imo.

 

Well to be quite pedantic, at least two of the voters for Norton (and I'd venture a lot more) thought this fight was referring to their rubber.

I'll have to find the source again. But he absolutely did say Norton wouldn't have beaten the Ali of three-four years ago, which proves my point that Frazier was the much harder stylistic match-up for Ali.

 

Perhaps Norton would've swept the final three rounds, but that's an assumption at best. Ali won the 11th round, their's no indication he couldn't have picked up at least another round after the 12th. But that's besides the point, does anyone here really think their would've been a 12th round if FOTC Frazier was the other man across the ring that night?

I also don't think it's quite as clear a Norton victory as you and the majority make it out to be.

 

I disagree. I think he was better in the FOTC, but he slowed down quicker because Frazier MADE him slow down with his relentless body attack, and making him expand much more in both his power, and output to keep Frazier off of him, whereas Norton couldn't really do anything while Ali was on his toes in the first half of the fight, which is why Ali seemingly had more gas in the tank in that bout.

Ali put on one of his best performances in TFOTC even though he was clearly rusty, and slowed down a step. Even if he wasn't "better" (which I think he was). I think his performance in TFOTC was absolutely better suited against Norton. He was hitting harder in that bout, than any other of his bouts (except probably Foreman and perhaps Bonavena) and when he came off toes, and stood flatfooted, and sat down on his punches, he generated a lot of power. I personally don't think Norton would've been able to take the punishment Frazier did, while given Ali's chin and the fact that he endured the punishment of a superior puncher in Frazier, I'm fairly certain he would've taken anything Norton threw at him. Oh and Futch himself said Norton would "definitely not" beat this version of Ali.

"Never have two more skilled heavyweights faced each other in the ring for the title while both were at or near their physical prime as was the case for the FOTC. That statement may tweak some fans of Muhammad Ali because he was only five months into his comeback after his forced three and a half year exile due to his refusal to be inducted into the Unites States Army because he was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War. But I defy anyone to find a single bout of Ali’s pre or post exile where he punched with more combined speed and power, especially during the first five rounds, than he did during the FOTC. Ali was cat-quick and hit with real authority because he had no choice since he had a wrecking machine in front of him by the name of Joe Frazier. Joe forced Ali to fight at a pace and tempo that he hadn’t before ever had to, and Muhammad answered the call.


As great of a fight as the “Thrilla In Manila” was for its sheer brutality, the fact of the matter is, neither Ali or Frazier had much defensive skills left and couldn’t miss each other. When Muhammad managed to keep Joe on the outside, he was defenseless and was picked apart. Yet once Frazier got inside he punished Ali and was in command. When Ali went on the attack, Frazier clearly got the worst of it, and once Ali needed a breather, Joe took over the fight. During the bout neither fighter was terribly accurate at a time when they both lacked head and upper body movement. And as the bout progressed it looked as though making the opponent miss was something unheard of to them. Both fighters had slowed down significantly since their first fight, but yet still couldn’t get out of the way from the Sunday punches they launched at each other.

Contrast that to the “Fight Of The Century” which was fought at warp speed with both fighters showing brilliant offensive and defensive skills throughout the bout. There were times during FOTC that Ali actually won the inside exchanges just as there were patches of the fight that saw Frazier better Ali from the outside. Also, the punching power and accuracy exhibited by both fighters during the FOTC was superior to that to which was on display in “Manila.”

During the FOTC Ali looked at times as though he was on the verge of taking complete control of the fight, at least during rounds one through 10, only to find himself with his back pinned against the ropes and looking as if he was at the end of the road in the subsequent round. Also during their first fight, Joe made Ali look like an amateur at times due to his bobbing and weaving as he constantly made Ali’s punch down as his left jabs and follow up right hands sailed above or past Joe’s head.

For 10 rounds the fight was contested pretty much evenly. Then with a minute left in the 11th round Frazier nailed Ali with a double left hook to the body and then to the head. The punch hurt Ali so badly that he was falling all over the ring for the rest of the round and appeared to be within a punch or two from Joe finishing him.

Joe’s aggression and determination that night was a thing to behold. He physically forced Ali to raise his game to a level he’d hadn’t ever dreamed of before. And because of the great athlete and super competitor Ali was, he managed to stay in the fight until 24 seconds into the 15th and final round when a desperate Ali was set to throw a right uppercut at the incoming Frazier, only to be beaten to the punch by Frazier’s big left hook that caught him on the point of his chin and dropped him as if he were shot. Ali was up at the count of four, but other than a brief flurry with a minute left in the round, Frazier won the round and sealed the fight in his favor via a unanimous decision."
https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/featured-b...q-is-the-greatest-heavyweight-title-bout-ever So I'm certainly not alone in my view that FOTC Ali was perhaps the best version of 70s Ali.

 

Some well respected historians take it even further and claim Ali was not only at his 70s best in this fight, but at his all time best.

Was there ever a better Muhammad Ali than the one who fought on March 8, 1971? I challenge my readers to take a close look at the film of the Joe Frazier-Muhammad Ali world heavyweight championship match fought on that date. I have watched this film many times, including several times just recently. There are some important factors the careful analyst should make note of concerning this fight.

In a comparison to the 1960’s Ali, the 1971 version was more filled out and physically stronger than the Ali of 1966 or ’67. Ali weighed about 202 for his ’66 fight against Henry Cooper, by the time of his fights with Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley in ’67 he was 212. Against Frazier in ’71 Ali weighed 215 only a few pounds more, but his upper body musculature looks far more impressive than that of the 60’s version.

Consider that Ali was less than 2 months away from being 28 years old, having just hit his 29th birthday Jan. 17, 1971. Ali was still very close to his absolute physical prime as a fighter. It is not fair to say that the Ali who fought Frazier was past his peak, ill prepared or suffering from rust. Ali had two tune-up fights before facing Frazier, one of them a 15 round knockout of Oscar Bonavena. It was the only time in his career that Bonavena, who twice went the distance with Frazier, was ever stopped. Ali was not suffering from poor timing against Frazier, nor was he judging distance improperly, or lacking punching effectiveness, which are the usual signs of a fighter who is affected by lack of good training. The film bears this out clearly.

When did Ali ever look better than he did in the first five rounds of the ‘71 Frazier fight? Produce the film where Ali ever looked better. Ali’s punching accuracy was superb. He was sitting down on his punches and he never hit harder. The Ali of the second round was as dominant as I ever saw him. He couldn’t miss. Ali swept the early rounds of the fight. If you watch the film one would never know that Ali was coming off a lay off. Perhaps had Ali never went into exile his stamina may have been greater, but Ali never looked better in any of his other fights than he did on that night.

In all honesty, when did Ali ever go out to totally destroy a foe of such caliber ever before? Against Liston he was young, he boxed, he moved and he made old man Liston look even older than he was and it seemed as if they were moving in different time zones. But Ali did not hit as hard, nor was he as physically strong in the clinch as the Ali of ’71. Ali went after Cleveland Williams, but that was a mercy killing. Williams was not the same fighter he was in previous years due to the fact that he had a bullet lodged in him from a shooting incident. Ali tortured Terrell, he had the speed and the accuracy, but did he not hit him with the power and authority that the Ali of ’71 would have.

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Ali fought a great fight against Frazier. Ask yourself would a peak Ron Lyle hit Joe Frazier harder than the right hands Ali hit Frazier with that night? Ali's punches did not lack proper timing or distance but instead were not only properly thrown but fast, accurate and powerful shots. Ali may have never thrown more consistent hard punches at any other time in his career.

Some will contend that Ali did not dance for 15 rounds like the 60’s version, but the truth is Ali would never have been able to dance like that against prime Frazier. Frazier came in too fast and was too good at cutting the ring. Frazier, probably more so than any other heavyweight champion was the most persistent at applying non stop pressure for 3 minutes of every round. Frazier’s aggressive bobbing and weaving style would have given any version of Ali fits just as he did in all of their actual fights. One must realize that during the 60's Ali never faced a fighter who could slip his jab and press him constantly on the inside. Ali did not plan on going to war with Frazier, but Frazier forced it on him. As Ali once said, “I bring out the best in everybody, but Joe Frazier brings out the best in me.” We saw the best of Ali in their climatic first fight.

Frazier, for his part, started “smoking” in the mid rounds when he began to come on as he always did. I counted slip and duck rates for Frazier in this fight. Joe made Ali miss an average of 14-17 punches a round. This is the highest slip and duck rate I have encountered in fighters of this level. Roberto Duran averaged about 12 a round in his peak performance at lightweight against Esteban Dejesus in their rubber match. Frazier was making Ali miss and making him pay. Of their great trilogy it was this first fight where Ali and Frazier were at their best, both undefeated and neither thought that they could lose. The "Thrilla in Manila" may have been more vicious, but only because they were older and couldn't miss each other. In terms of skill level and quality of opposition, no other heavyweight fight in history can match this one.

Perhaps no other opponent would have beaten this Ali. Consider what Ali brought to the ring that night. Fantastic hand speed, accurate jabs and precise combination punching, a hard right cross that never looked better, strength to clinch, maul and brawl on the inside, and in this fight he proved he could take a tremendous punch. Had Ali never went into exile perhaps we may have seen a better Ali between 1968-1970, that we will never know. What we can recognize is that we never actually saw a better Muhammad Ali than the one who fought Frazier on March 8, 1971.

Neither Ali nor Frazier were ever quite the same after that fight. Despite having won the decision the fight seemed to take more out of Frazier who never again achieved the same level of success. Ali, although he would go on to enjoy another long reign as champion, never looked sharper. It is ironic that perhaps the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, on his best night ever, lost.



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