Now who wins prime Calzaghe or prime Ward?

Glen Johnson wasn't better suited to 175, if he was he wouldn't have gone back down to 168 to compete in the super 6. Johnson is the ideal example of how he was a top 3 fighter in the division who couldn't crack the top 10 in what you claim to be such a weak 168.

Do a comparison if you want 175 outside of Jones and DM was a much of a muchness in the sense that it was packed at that time with B/C level fighters, I don't know what makes Hall, Harding, Harmon, Woods and Gonzalez so stand out?

 

Im not disagreeing with you on Calzaghe opposition. I do disagree on the fact that Kovalev is a BASIC fighter with zero conditioning. Ward and Cal built their resumes on Euro level competition - thats just a fact. Watching Ward get outboxed by Kovalev (and over 20rds of boxing he was out boxed) i cant imagine him solving the puzzle that was Calzaghe.

And so what about straight right hands? Ward does not possess a great straight right down the pipe.

 

He went to the S6 for the opportunity. He didn't exactly have any other options at the time.

 

I fully agree and he ran a prime Froch hard, but he made 168 easily and has 5 fights there over a 2 year period.....thats not a guy who is a natural 175lb fighter.

I'm not hating on Johnson I just think he's the ideal "case" to prove that 175 wasn't as good as advertised.

 

I've yet to see someone move back down in weight, after a long run higher up, and be successful. Johnson was far from successful at 168, after moving down for the S6 shot.

There are too many variables to consider to try and use one fighter as proof one division was better than the other. My two cents.

 

I felt similarly at first however after watching both fights it was clear Ward was never trying to outbox Sergey in a traditional level. I believe Ward felt his advantages would come in windows and spurts while kovalev was most comfortable.

Not sure if you noticed but Wards punches landed hard and effective in pockets during the last 3 rounds, he was banking on Sergey losing steam and that's what essentially happened. There were moments where Ward landed some debilitating body shots directly under Sergeys armpit....everything he did was systematic and based on the opportunities Kovalev presented (sharp sneaky rights hands as soon as the bell rang) while Sergey seemed to push and force his attack rather than encourage Ward to initiate and score. At the time of the stoppage I had Sergey up 4/3 but the momentum was making a drastic shift.

 

Glen Johnson was a tougher guy to fight at LHW.

He was a stand in for the Super Six.

You keep concentrating on 2004. Fine, but again, what about all of the other years?

The LHW division wasn't stacked. I never claimed it was. But it was stronger than the SMW division from the time of Joe winning his title to the time of Roy losing his.


http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1997

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1998

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1999

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_2000

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_2001

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_2002

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_2003

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_2004


Joe missed a lot of guys from those lists.

Within that time frame, take a look at the recognisable guys that he could have targeted at LHW, which was a weight that he could have made relatively easy.

Now take a look at who he starved himself to fight instead for peanuts:

Branko Sobot
Robin Reid
Juan Gimenez
Rick Thornberry
David Starie
Omar Sheika
Richie Woodhall
Mario Veit
Will McIntyre
Charles Brewer
Miguel Jiminez
Tocker Pudwill
Byron Mitchell
Mger Mkrtchyan
Kabary Salem

It speaks volumes.

Now I'm not naive enough to think that he could have just gone up to LHW and fought any of those guys. We all know about boxing politics etc. But he could have at least made the effort, instead of repeatedly defending his lightly regarded belt against mainly B and C class opposition.

 

Recognised names in as much as they are American? Yes sure you have your Reggie Johnson's, Montell Griffin's and perhaps they bring him more exposure in the USA but again I'd argue that beyond Jones, DM and perhaps Tarver you could put the rest of the 168 against the 175 and have some very even match ups.

Regarding your insistence that Calzaghe should have gone to 175, let's remember Ward has been at 175 for what...2 years? And he's only fought 2 actual light heavyweights in Barrera and SK. Let's not act as though he's cleaned out the division.

Ward is still young and he's got some ATG defining type fights if he chooses so in Beterbiev, Gvozdyk, Bivol and the piece of **** from Canada.

 

How is Kovalev a basic fighter?

Stop being ridiculous.

You can't say that you can't envisage a scenario where Andre could have beaten Joe, just based on periods of success by Kovalev.

I can ask: "How does a guy who scraped by a B class Robin Reid and a 43 year old Bernard Hopkins beat a prime version of Andre Ward?"

Regarding Joe's susceptibility to right hands, it highlights that despite his great speed and volume, he often left himself opened to be countered. So it's not a given that Joe would have beaten Andre, just because of his speed and work rate. Hopkins proved that.

 

Again, it was better than the SMW division where Joe spent the majority of his career.

 

It has nothing to do with them being American.

I agree, you would have gotten some even match ups. But LHW was clearly stronger, and much stronger than most of the guys who Joe actually went on to fight.

I am not acting like Ward has cleaned out the division. But he's done something that Joe would never have done. Joe would never have moved up to fight a guy like Kovalev.

 

Well that's your opinion, but I don't agree.

Like I've already said I don't know what makes Thadzi, Del Valle, Griffin, Guthrie, Rocchigiani any better than Eubank, Reid, Brewer or Graham or for instance Telesco, Chris Johnson, Harding or Harmon are any way far superior to Girad, Brewer, Mitchell or Butler.

 

Again this your opinion and not fact.

 

How can you not agree?

We're talking about as a whole. Sure, you can compare the odd name. But as a whole, LHW was stronger.

I've listed the rankings for all to see.

Again, the best fighters at LHW were also better than almost all of Joe's opposition from 1997-2004.

His actions to remain at SMW where he starved himself to fight B and C class opposition, cannot be defended.

 

Again Eric Harding as an example a top 3 -5 light heavyweight during Calzaghe's reign as champ....what makes him so good?

Derrick Harmon a top 10 light heavyweight....what makes him so good?

Reggie Johnson?.....quality middleweight but at 175? He beat nobody of note outside of Gonzalez who God bless his soul was as basic as they come.

Now yes you've shown me rankings, but not once have you explained how it was so much better or deeper at 175....not once only by said fighters where better.

I agree JC had his fair share of easy defences, but he beat 8 current or former champions at 168, 10 in his whole career....now again I'm not disputing that he'd lose to a prime roided Roy Jones but other than him there's not one fighter I'd favour to beat JC.