Observations on Ali-Cooper 2

A factor that is often overlooked re the first Louis-Conn fight is the claim made by Louis in "Joe Louis - My Life" that Louis dehydrated himself for the first Conn fight, he was determined to come in sub 200 as he didn't want the MC saying "Conn 17*, Louis 20*" - Louis didn't like the sound of that.

Louis said, as a result he felt like sh*t throughout the fight.

Louis' claim rings true to me; Louis was extremely frank in the book; it was issued a year or 2 before he died and I think he was being extremely honest.

My point (eventually!) being that Louis' attempts to "make weight" seem to have significantly impaired his performance and should be factored in when assessing Joe's performance/difficulties in Conn 1.

 

Interresting that, in their 2nd fight, Cooper was completly unmarked until the sixth round when Ali's big right opened the flood gates.
Who can't love 'enery?
His jab was really good, not to mention that left hook ( a converted southpaw for pete's sake) It was his right that didn't pack much wallop.
In 63 he won the first round, overly aggressive and bloodied Ali's nose.
Lost rounds two and three, and then clocked Clay in the 4th. Given that scenerio, he was ahead on the cards at the start of round 5 38-37.
10-9, 9-10, 9-10, 10-8.

 

^ and he should of won the first fight by disqualification. Never mind all the drama nonsense with the split gloves and how much time elapsed, that obscures the bigger issue of smelling salts being used to revive Ali for the following round. Under British rules no stimulant outside of water was allowed to be used. If caught the penalty was disqualification.

 

So was Ali's chin weaker in the 1960s or would Cooper have hit hard enough to have Ali in trouble at any stage of Ali's career?

 

Point taken but, gloves weren't replaced, and repeated videos show Clay only had about 67 or so seconds between rounds 4-5.
A question. Had Cooper stopped Ali that day, boxing may have been altered dramatically. Henry had his moment but, in his career, he NEVER came stateside for a fight and...said he would walk to the other side of the street if he saw Sonny coming anywhere near him.
If Henry had stopped Clay? He would have probably tried for some sort of Doug Jones bout...at Wembley Pool! And Ali would have still continued his great career, with the naysayers trashing him for the Cooper loss in any reference to his being an ATG, which he was.
IMHO, the first fight ended the way it should have.
All that being said, I still realize that Clay was 'clocked', after going to his corner after round 4, he suddenly stood up, and started walking away (where were you going Muhammad?)

 

Cooper gave Ali two good fights.
Henry was IMO one of Ali's better opponents in the 60's.
I'm a huge Ali fan....but i've always said his first reign opposition wasn't great.
Liston took a dive.
Williams was damaged goods.
Patterson wasn't the same after Liston x2
London wasn't world class
Mildenburger good but not world class
Folley good but old.
Terrell slow ponderous
First real dangerous opponent was Joe Frazier.

 

Yes the gloves are lucky to have bought a 7 second delay, to me that is a non issue. To me the smelling salts is a big issue. Ali was clearly ROCKED as the video shows and as you pointed out he even got up and tried to walk away a clear sign that his senses were not regained. Dundee used an illegal means to revive his charge in a moment of great duress.
Ali had he lost would have rebounded he was too good to not have, and Cooper would have posed little threat to Sonny had they fought next. Ali eventually would have gotten his title shot. Ali still would have become an ATG if anything a loss in this fight by DQ would have made a polarizing argument between his supporters and detractors. It also would have softened his pre exile "invincibility" aura many share about his abilities.

 

All versions are edited. You have no idea how much extra time Ali got. What I know is: 1) He got more than legally allowable (cheat) 2) he got smelling salts during that extra time (cheat) 3) The glove might have been ripped because it was loaded or engineered in a way to be more potent at causing cuts, or, simply was ripped and the referee lied (threats and money can do it, and the ref might have had a bet)

Ali was no Liston. Liston demolished far better versions of Wepner, Patterson, Folley, Cleveland Williams than the versions Ali got, and yet did it even more emphatically. Both are overrated and both were mafia protegees. Ali had the NOI too. Difference is Liston's handlers let him down for the new cash cow, whereas Ali's handlers kept milking it, and protected its career at all cost.

Would Doug Jones and Henry Cooper give Liston/Foreman/Lewis/Witherspoon/Pinklon Thomas/David Tua/ Ike Ibeabuchi / Riddick Bowe/ others what they managed with Ali? Same question replacing Jones and Cooper with the slightly superior (as h2h HWs) George Chuvalo, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier and restricting the above to only Foreman, Lewis, Bowe, Tua, Ibeabuchi and some more (Liston, Witherspoon and Thomas might have struggled with Frazier and Norton). Ali was either rescued from being stopped by crimes of Angelo Mirena usually assisted by others (Foreman, Cooper), got rigged decision gifts from Don King judges (Norton 2,3 , Chuvalo*2, Doug Jones), or just fought in cheap circus shows (Liston*2, Lyle) Ali without Mirena and King's crimes would have been on the level of Greg Page, or Michael Dokes. This is what his true worth was before being leveraged by criminals and praised by ignorant people. Aside from the last assessment paragraph above this one (if this configuration of web browser permits), which state I enumerated do you have any reservation with?

 

The BBC showed the fight unedited later, the delay was under 10 seconds.
Your post is your usual Brothers Grimm fairy tale.

 

Cooper was one of the best bleeders of all time. Sometimes he would spit out blood similar to the way water jumps out of a busted pipe.

Regarding Louis, he wasn't very good vs boxer mover types, and was open. Cooper might have been a tad better at hitting a moving target and a bit more of a go for broke type.

 

I agree with this. Oddly enough Terrell looks much faster in other fights, yet he's as slow as ketchup vs Ali.

Didn't Patterson do all right vs Ali? I believe he had an injured back.

Mildenburger was smaller but had his moments and made Ali shift tactics a bit. I think he won a few rounds.

 

Cooper was stopped on cuts 4 times in 55 fights.

 

The relevance is in the fact that Mendoza stated that Cooper was one of the best bleeders,.I showed he was only stopped due to cuts in 4 of his 55 fights.

Now do you see, or do you need a diagram?

 

There ya go and my thoughts also after having rewatched Ali-Cooper2, Ali-Terrell, and Ali-Chuvalo1. Not nearly as impressed as I was at the time and one of the reasons I rate Louis my #1 heavyweight over Ali.

 

Frank, were all allowed our opinons and thank goodness for that, but that being said you live way out in left field. There is indeed an unedited film and Ali had a few seconds benefit, Ali legit beat Norton in the 2nd and 3rd goes in many opinons including one far greater then yours, Arthur Mercante, Lyle fought an excellently thought out and winning bout until as he stated, was hurt, etc. Sometimes you made more sense when writing in jibberish Frank.