The crowd and commentator have a very underestimated impact on how fights are perceived. In fact I believe that the crowd can subconciously effect even how the judges score a contest. Even when watching a fight such as the Thrilla in Manilla it is very easy to be influenced by the legend of the fight, the Ali myth and how you have the fight described. Even listening to Don Dunphy during the fight you'd think Ali won this reasonably comfortably bar 3 or 4 difficult middle rounds. Watching the fight without sound I had a completely different perspective on this classic contest. I heard Ali was at his lowest moment in the fight at the end of round 10 and felt like quitting but I never realised just how badly he was beaten in rounds 9 and 10 until I watched it without sound. Frazier looks the fitter stronger fighter after round 4 until round 11. Its only from round 12-14 when Frazier is becoming blind that Ali's punches start landing regularly on Frazier forcing an eventual stoppage. Frazier was physically more active than Ali and pressurised a very uncomfortable looking Ali. In round 10 Frazier's body attack would have stopped most heavyweights. Ali just had a tremendous will to win but he doesnt look as if he won by as wide of a margin as the judges scores had the fight at the time. The rumble in the jungle is a pretty easy win for Ali after the first 3 rounds. In fact the first round is probably the only point in the fight where it looks as if Foreman might win. Ali still looks fresh and full of energy and focus right up until the KO. Foreman looks shattered, dehydrated and spent from about round 4 onwards. All Foreman had to offer in this fight was power. Foreman didnt know how to pace himself or fight a long fight because he didnt even consider it an option when he had based his career and becoming champion on quick KOs. This fight was proof that even arguably the strongest heavyweight champion of all time could be beaten by someone who could take a punch and I think Ali was able to deal with someone who just went into the ring to KO him more easily than someone who would try to outskill him - in Frazier's case he didnt have the one punch haymakers of Foreman but his relentless pressure and boxing skill was more problematic for Ali. Frazier was stylistically more difficult for Ali than Foreman and I believe Ali when he said that Foreman was easy compared to Frazier. Foreman didnt have a left hook to trouble Ali - he had wide haymakers, a stiff jab and an uppercut - all weapons that are more useful against a smaller opponent who Foreman could physically bully. Foreman had no answer to Ali's size and ability to take a punch. The major difference between Frazier and Foreman though as regards to stylistically matching up with Ali though was CONDITIONING, STAMINA AND RING INTELLIGENCE. Foreman was spent within 3 or 4 rounds against Ali but 4 rounds is nothing for Frazier in fact he's just getting warmed up. Frazier was a pressure style fighter and Ali's rope a dope tactics were counter productive against Frazier - Frazier doesn't waste punches looking for the KO as Foreman did he looks to wear Ali down. Ali only really has joy against Frazier when he gets back to the fast moving fast punching style of fighting that characterized his style in the 1960s. In conclusion I advise those watching old fights to TURN THE SOUND DOWN. Dont listen to the commentator or the sound of the crowd as they distort the way a fight is perceived. I guess you do miss the sound of the punches but it does give a different perspective on the fight. Also I believe that the old adage ' styles make fights' is summed up very well by 3 ATGs in Foreman, Frazier and Ali who all fought each other in their era. There is no such thing as an unbeatable heavyweight when you match greatness with greatness. Formean could very well beat Tyson but lose to Jersey Joe Walcott for example.
The Don Dunphy commentary for the early rounds of Thrilla in Manila seems so at odds with what I'm seeing that it probably has the reverse effect on me. The more Dunphy ignores Frazier's work the more I start concentrating on what Frazier is doing, perhaps to Ali's detriment. It's baffling how Frazier's smashing hard punches to Ali's body and the announcer is saying stuff like "It's all Ali here". Eventually he notices. Great fight.
Is not uncommon for me to be a little surprised when we watching the Rumble in the Jungle it how dominant Ali was in that fight.
Loved Dunphy but he did a ****py job in Manilia in terms of calling the action. In my book after 11 rounds it's an even fight. Round 11 was the telling round as it was in fight 1. Joe seriously hurt Ali with a short left hook that was unnoticed by Dunphy. Unlike fight 1 however Ali sucked it up and came on in the last minute making a solid Frazier round difficult to score.
This forum isnt as busy as it was a few months ago? I dont think Foreman would ever have beaten Ali. He used a lot of excuses after the event but I think the best Foreman could have done was to lose on points to Ali in a re-match. I dont see 70s Foreman outpointing Ali. Early 90s Foreman would have probably done better in my opinion.
Do you mean to tell me there are actually people who STILL watch fights with the sound turned UP? If so, fuk em. They deserve what they are stupid enough to believe.
I definitely agree that Ali was winning the RITJ quite comfortably apart from catching a few haymakers and that the 'Thrilla' was very close up to the stoppage.
Ali Frazier 3 was close until Ali surged in the 12-14th rounds. It was even up until that point in time. One sided during the last two where Joe could surge no longer and was blind. Ali just beat Joe down in the last six minutes.
I remember watching documentaries and reading about Zaire as a kid, and watching the fight, and thinking "Ali kind of kicked Foreman's ass throughout the fight". Years later I watched it again, thinking maybe I was just a kid and didn't understand what I was watching. Nope. Ali was winning when he stopped Foreman and didn't only start landing consistently when Foreman tired. He was landing clean shots to the head throughout. Ali definitely showed his great ability to absorb bodyshots, but he landed clean shots to the head as soon as he went to the ropes. Ali didn't merely "rope-a-dope" well enough until Foreman tired. He was winning while fighting off the ropes even before Foreman tired. Foreman had little respect for Ali's power and so often showed little regard for defense. He paid for it. Ali was narrowly ahead IMO after 14 in Manila. The common consensus is that Ali dominated the early going, Frazier the middle part, and Ali the last few rounds. It's a simplified version of it, somewhat accurate but not totally true. IIRC, he landed some nice shots late in the 11th and started off the 12th with a beautiful combo. One of my favorite sequences was in the 3rd round, which Frazier won IMO. Frazier was landing hard body punches and there was one sequence where Ali must have thrown 25 to 30 punches, and maybe one shot landed. It was a great display of upper body movement and defense by Frazier.
I had the fight 7-6-1 Ali at the end of the 14th round. I agree about Frazier winning the 3rd round. I think Ali would have gone out and won the fight in the 15th or on points if it continued. Ali was actually more inclined to quit at the end of the 10th and was almost forced back into the ring by his corner or Herbert. Somehow he recovered to win the fight.
There was no chance Joe was winning that fight in round 15 no matter what the Ali haters may try to believe. Joe was blind and completely exhausted with his mouth pouring blood. Ali although exhausted was not anywhere near how bad off Frazier was after 14 rounds. I had Ali ahead 8-5-1 at the end so an even bout after 11.
After the bout Ali was asked did he ever think he was going to lose. His response was "only in round 10, the pressure was too great and if I was not in the condition I was in I would have definitely lost."
Very true :good Only a sadist would have had Frazier go out for that final round. Joe could have got SERIOUSLY hurt had Eddie Futch not had the compassion and foresight to have pulled his man out.