ODLH: GGG-Canelo Rematch Talks To Resume AFTER Saunders-Lemieux (GBP Preparing To Duck GGG Rematch?)

Of course I would've done the same, wait for the real ballers to offer more money! What I don't get why did they took that long tho...

 

What was the offer for the rematch? We know he got roughly 30K to face John in Indonesia.

 

LOL I just found it funny that I check back here after a few days and you're literally saying the same exact thing as you were the last time I checked. I just found that humorous is all. I would have thought you'd have evolved a little from the same stuff you were saying last week.

Didn't expect you to change your position on who you thought won, but I just couldn't believe you're still trying to relate it to Lewis Holyfield. As far this being "work" for me, no, coming on here is fun / leisure / entertainment.

Wrong : LL/Holyfield was "extremely" controversial in that "practically nobody had it a draw" or thought Holyfield deserved it or that he won. Plenty of people thought the draw was fair in Canelo G, big difference. Obviously it's hard to compare apples-to-apples since there wasn't social media back then, but the outrage in Canelo G was very clearly aimed at the wideness of 118-110 card, whereas the outrage in Lewis Holyfield was very clearly aimed at the draw itself.

It sounds to me like you were rooting for Triple G, that you're more of a fan of him than Alvarez, but regardless, what I meant by "your guy" was simply "the guy that you thought won" as opposed to the guy that actually won. I know you preferred G's workrate and thought he won, which is fine, but you're acting like it was "no different" than Lewis Holyfield which is ridiculous for the reasons I listed above. Canelo G wasn't only recorded as a draw, but it also "was" a draw.

Lewis Holyfield was nothing like Canelo G and to try to equate the two is insulting to the sport, to the rivarly Canelo G is and to the spectacle that it was. To equate the two repeatedly as you have I found humorous as I couldn't believe you were still making this parallel. I know a good, close fight when I see one and it's silly for you to act like such a close fight that could go either way was a robbery. Whoever you thought won, voice your opinion, by all means, but lets not act like it was something that it wasn't. Also I wouldn't characterize my view of the fight as a "decisive" Canelo victory, I thought he won it by several rounds, but he didn't win it convincing enough, which highlights the biggest difference between you and me, in that I recognize the fight was close and debatable whereas you do not.

 

He may have deserved a little more for the rematch with Manny but keeping everything in perspective....his offer for the rematch was more than what he was paid for the first fight and it was also the biggest payday to that point in JMM's career. There are a few people who claimed PAC ducked the rematch but in actuality Manny sought an immediate rematch and the offer was made to JMM. It was JMM who declined and moved on to fight Chris John for far less money.

 

I just wish I was Oscars dealer. He's thereal winner.

 

I'm unsure how you would come to that conclusion of "evolving" my position if the topic is exactly the same? Let me ask you this, has your stance evolved at all. Based on your reply it mirrors your original narrative. Just asking?

I already posted to you a bunch of people who weighed in on the first LL/Holyfield fight who thought Evander won, thought the draw was just or felt that fight was close. I say a "bunch" with the understanding that it was a very, very small number when considering the overwhelming consensus was that Lewis won, clearly....just as small a number of fans who thought Alvarez beat Golovkin. The percentage of 90-95% to 10-5% speaks volumes as painting the picture of who won in both of those fights.

I'm actually more of a Canelo fan at the end of the day. If Alvarez and GGG are fighting at the same time on the same night, I'd tune in to watch Canelo. I'm partial to his style more than Golovkin. I'm just firm on calling a spade, a spade. If Alvarez won, I would be putting in just as much effort in justifying why the draw was bogus had Golovkin been gifted a draw. But that didn't happen....If Lewis/Holyfield wasn't a draw, regardless of how it was recorded then neither was GGG/Alvarez.

If you had it a few rounds for Alvarez then that's a decisive card. If you are unsure and feel it was close, then you obviously aren't confident in how well Alvarez did. I say unequivocally GGG won in clear fashion because it was an easy fight to score. Just like the Lewis vs Holyfield fight was easy to score and I knew Lewis won regardless of how the fight was recorded. There's a bigger delta between you and I on this....it's not just you thinking it was a close fight for Alvarez and me thinking it was a clear win for Golovkin. You have your own unique perspective in how you saw this fight which is a stark contrast in how I saw it and the metrics I use consistently in all fights I score.

 

Throwing harder punches + using more upper body elusive defensive movement + using your legs to get out of range more exerts way more energy than just walking forward and throwing some punches. What Canelo was doing in there was far more sophisticated and it would naturally burn more energy than what G was doing, which was just walking forward throwing punches and walking into punches.

As far as who was more tired, we're talking about two different things. Of course there were times during the bout that Canelo punched himself out essentially, and gassed during the rounds. But he also recuperated in between rounds and had a lot of energy coming out for the next round. Look how he fought at the beginning of round 10,11, and 12. He came out fast then he punched himself out a bit and took some time off between throwing punches, but still kept his composure. That's different than who was more gassed after 12 rounds. If you look in between rounds, Gennady was breathing heavily, if you look at his face, it was much redder than Canelo's. That's undeniable.

Canelo could have paced himself better but he was the one throwing bombs, he was the one trying to land big fight-changing punches he was the one counter punching with upper body movement. Counter punching generally requires more energy and concentration than just coming forward and throw basic punches to the same location all fight. It requires more energy to dig down and get in hard body shots like Canelo was doing. (which probably caused G to tire even more after receiving the body shots) G didn't have the energy to throw body shots, he had to pace himself more.

As far as who was more tired after the bout, I would say Gennady. Canelo gassed at times during the rounds after punching himself out, but in between rounds he recovered quickly and got a 2nd wind as is more typical in younger fighters than older fighters. Canelo was high energy, Gennady was low energy. It's easier to be consistent when you are low energy. You act like I'm speaking a different language lol. It's plenty clear who has the more recuperative powers. Canelo is the younger, more youthful, more energetic, more dynamic fighter. Lets not confuse sporadic gassing during rounds after throwing too many punches in a row (Canelo) vs being older, breathing heavy in between rounds, not being used to going 12 rounds (Gennady). Canelo has gone 12 rounds a lot more than Gennady, so it was no surprise that when the 12th round started Canelo came out with more energy. After the bout, I thought Gennady appeared to be more tired, more visibly fatigued than Canelo. (which would make sense, wouldn't it, since he's in his mid 30s - that's not a knock on Gennady)

Gennady was plenty tired, and I'd imagine was probably more sore the next day. Looking at the two fighters in between rounds, Gennady was breathing harder, he was expanding his chest, taking deep breaths, he was bending over, his face was redder, etc. Look at Canelo in between rounds. Did he look that tired? (granted they showed Gennady's corner more, but when the did show Canelo's corner, he did not look as tired as Gennady) When the bell rang for the start of the 12th round, one fighter had more energy than the other, and that fighter was Canelo. There's a difference between punching yourself out by throwing multiple big punches during some of the rounds, and after doing that, needing to do some outboxing to regain your energy to throw those kinds of punches again, to being more tired overall and after the 12 rounds are completed. Gennady didn't have the energy to throw big punches like that, or to outbox like Canelo did, or to use upper body movement to counter punch with digging in body shots. Frankly, during Gennady's ring walk, he looked more tired to me than Canelo, and more tired than Gennady usually does. It was obvious that Gennady had to pace himself in this fight. Many people also have argued that Gennady is on the decline, well surely how he "looked" during the fight would contribute to that observation would it not? If he didn't look as "tired" I doubt as many people would argue that Gennady is on the decline. When people think of Prime Triple G, surely they think of the knockout artist, a guy who throws body shots, a guy who has unlimited energy, etc. That's not the guy we saw in there with Canelo.

Gennady paced himself, because he knew going into the bout (on fight night) that he wasn't going to try and do the things that Canelo was doing. (things that Canelo did that impressed the crowd and the judges by the way)

 

Back peddling is not at all sophisticated which was the crux of his defensive foundation for the GGG fight. That's typically not the case in every other fight Alvarez had been in before.

His usual mode of operation as a fighter used a far more balanced approach. It also expended more energy having to constantly move backwards to mitigate the distance GGG was dictating. Had Alvarez chose to stay in the center of the ring and use subtle defensive skills that required less exertion of energy he may have had more reserves in the later rounds.

Both men were tired and sucking air by the middle rounds but that's not always an indication of lack of conditioning or stamina. Back peddling and holding are and Alvarez was doing a lot of backing up. He would recoup in between rounds but after a 30 to 40 second spurt where he blew his load....it was right back to back peddling and retreat mode for the rest of the round.

GGG didn't throw body shots, period. It had nothing to do with body shots costing him more energy than head shots. He just wasn't focused on going downstairs or avoided it as respect to Alvarez's counter ability and power.

I honestly can't tell if you are joking when you say that GGG was more gassed in this fight. That's so beyond the realm of reality it has me question your entire argument altogether. GGG doesn't exert a lot of energy. His style uses little energy because he doesn't make a lot of unnecessary movements. His pressure is methodical and workman like. He cuts off the ring well and his defense is sleight compared to the more pronounced head and upper body movement we see from the more flashy boxer/counter punchers like Alvarez.

If we still had 15 round fights I'd bet my house GGG would have more gas in the tank than Alvarez on September 16th. In the 12th round Alvarez blew his load in the beginning 30 seconds or so and began back peddling for the remaining 2:30. He threw a flurry at the last 10 seconds but that was more showmanship than anything else.

GGG is 36 so he's on the downhill side of his physical peak as an athlete. But his conditioning is still great. He maintained a very high work rate throughout the fight but he's slowed down a tad....his reflexes look a touch slower and he was in there against a top level guy. I wouldn't read too much into it. GGG has less ring miles on the odometer than most 36 year old boxers at this level.

 

He blew his load in the beginning 30 seconds and just back peddled for the remaining 2:30 huh?

Of course he was still standing right in front of G landing a jab with 2:27 left. Took a quick step back with 2:25 left and lands a hard uppercut on G. Still standing right in front of G with 2:20 left, walking him down ducking punches and countering with a left hand to the body, part of a 3 punch combination. Still coming forward moments later throwing a 7 punch combination. Canelo then takes a step back, then both fighters lean forward with gloves up, and Canelo lands a flush clean right hand with 2:09 left.

Yeah Canelo "backpedalled" a bit with 2:05 left, took 3 short steps backwards, then proceeded to throw a hard 3 punch combination ending with a flush right hand with 2:01 left that causes Gennady to take a step back himself.

(this 30 seconds after Canelo had already "blew his load" according to you) Canelo didn't really start backpeddling until under 2 minutes left in the round, and when G got into range, he would throw punches. When he wasn't punching, he was trying to make Gennady miss. (which he was quite successful at doing) You're trying to act like Canelo was just taking large chunks of rounds off. Even when he was backpeddling, he was setting up punches. You say you're a fan of Canelo or you prefer his style to Gennady's, but by the way you're describing these rounds, it doesn't seem like you have any appreciation of just how effective Canelo was while backpeddling.

Please take another look at Round 12. You're acting like Canelo just threw a bunch of punches in the first 30 seconds, then just took off the rest of the round or something, just running away for the rest of the round not throwing any punches for the rest of the round. (until the final 10 seconds) That's not what happened. He didn't really do any real constant backpeddling until under 2 minutes left. The first minute, he was standing right in front of Gennady, walking him down at times. And while backpeddling in the latter half of the round, he was still timing G coming forward, and essentially going punch for punch with Gennady down the stretch of the round. Canelo was still throwing combinations with 30 seconds left in the round.

Your synopsis of the round is just inaccurate. The first minute was all Canelo, he didn't start realy backpeddling until the 2nd minute of the round, and even then it wasn't constant, only it spurts, and it had more to do with giving G angles and giving him movement rather than Canelo just being completely exhausted as you're making it seem. If he was completely exhaused down the stretch of the round, he wouldn't have continued to punch with G, he wouldn't have landed that 3 punch combo with 30 seconds left, etc. His movement was very effective in enabling him to time Gennady coming in and continue to land punches throughout the round when Gennady tried to make a comeback.

 

I explained this quite clearly in a previous post. Just because a fighter is backpeddling doesn't mean he's gassed. Was Sweet Pea gassed when he fought Chavez?

There were moments where Canelo appeared to gas during the bout, mainly in the middle rounds, but by the 12th round, he clearly looked the more fresher fighter. Just look at the combinations he was throwing in the 12th round. Canelo threw a 7 punch combination, multiple 3 punch combinations, multiple upper cuts, was ducking G punches and countering with body shots (one was with about 40 seconds left) etc.

Gennady on the other hand was not throwing combinations, was not throwing uppercuts, was not ducking punches, etc. Wouldn't you agree that the more tired fighter would probably throw less combinations in the final round?

 

Reading this it would seem Alvarez was the only one who threw punches in the 12th round. Alvarez landed some good shots. GGG landed some good shots too. For the majority of the round Alavarez was back peddling. He was getting hit with clean shots and GGG was backing him up. Alvarez was spent but dig deep to muster up a higher punch output than the previous rounds. Alvarez did have moments where he caught Golovkin coming in by stepping to the side and using angles effectively. But nothing was anything on them by the end of the fight. He was completely spent and he was pushing his punches.

 

Whitaker was definitely tired but he wasn't gassed. Sweet pea wasn't nearly as defensive in his fight with JCC as Canelo was against GGG. And Sweet Pea wasn't back peddling more than he was using angles, lateral movement, pivots and head/upper body movement as his defensive foundation. Pernell actually threw more punches than JCC and was more accurate. There's really no comparison. Alvarez is no Whitaker, defensively.

Canelo was more tired in the final round but his sense of urgency was greater. He didn't feel like he was winning the fight and knew he had to dig deep to win the 12th. He was more active in the last round and flurried early and late.....in the middle he tried to pot shot, tie up, move away and catch a second, third or fourth wind.

 

This coming from someone who's trying to compare Alvarez vs G to Holyfield vs Lewis lol. Alvarez fought G a lot like more like Whitaker fought Chavez than Holyfield fought Lewis, that's for damn sure.

Of course Alvarez is no Whitaker. For one, Whitaker was a Welterweight and is known as one of the best defensive boxers of all time. I think we can agree that Whitaker outboxed Chavez more clearly than Canelo outboxed Triple G, but the point was that they both used backpedalling, lateral movement, pivots, head / upper body movement, and giving the opponent angles to frustrate the more basic, more upright, more out-skilled opponent.

LOL So you're a mind reader now are you? I'm pretty sure that Canelo thought he was winning the fight, in the post fight he said he thought he won at least 7 or 8 rounds, but of course he felt a sense of urgency. But the fact of the matter was that Canelo was the more energetic, less tired fighter in the 12th round. He threw more combinations and longer more sustained combinations, clearly. G just didn't have the same energy that Canelo had in the 12th round, which is one of the reasons why I said that G looked more tired.

This isn't rocket science, of course Canelo towards the end of the round was spent, he was the one punching harder, throwing combinations, ducking punches and countering with body shots, landing uppercuts etc. Canelo was outworking G in the 12th, so after putting on that boxing clinic, of course he was spent. In the first minute, contrary to what you said, Canelo was pretty much standing toe-to-toe with G, coming forward. Then in the 2nd minute, he did the smart thing and started to move away, since G knew he was losing the round, and needed a comeback, Canelo did what any defensive master would do and make the opponent that's losing the round chase him since he had a lead. And when he got close, he would pot shot, duck punches, counter punch, throw jabs, occasional combinations etc. If at that point Canelo wouldn't had done that, he may have given G a chance to get back in the round.

Defensive masters like Sweet Pea or Floyd Mayweather know when to stand toe to toe and when to outbox (backpeddle). Canelo was mixing up standing toe to toe and backpeddling brilliantly, yet you're acting like he was doing something wrong or was being too defensive. How he fought the 12th round was brilliant and Canelo won the round quite clearly. He was the much less tired fighter in that round because he still had the legs to throw all those combinations and outbox effectively, and to not get caught with any major punches. G got in a few decent punches, but nothing major, nothing like what Canelo was able to land on G in that round, which is why it seems like everybody gave that round to Canelo.

How each fighter performs in the 12th round is a pretty good indication of how tired they are. If Canelo had more urgency in the 12th, then great, it shows that he was less tired and had more gas in the tank so to speak to perform like that in the 12th than Gennady did. Both fighters were spent by the end of the 12th, the difference is that Canelo did the better work in the round. He used combination punching, he utilized intelligent movement with his legs, Gennady was just completely spent from the beginning of the round to the end. If it went to the 13th round, I'd expect Canelo to recuperate in between rounds like he did the previous 3 rounds and start the next round fresh with another combination punching rally with Gennady walking into more punches. Gennady was pretty much done at that point. Canelo was putting in the better work during the 12th round, which is representative of a fresher more seasoned 12 round fighter.

 

Nothing was on Canelo's punches by the end of the fight? Canelo ducked a right hand from G that missed wildly with about 40 seconds left in the round, then dug in a right hand hook/upper to the body, that punch wasn't pushed, not sure if it landed clean, but it definitely had some force, some real power, on it. Just the fact that in the final minute of the fight, Canelo was still making G miss and countering with hard body shots like that says a lot about how much gas Canelo still had left in the tank.

Take a look at the jab that Canelo landed with 18 seconds left in the 12th. Would you say there was nothing on that punch? That jab had snap on it, it snapped G's head back. G literally leaped back nearly hitting the ropes after being hit with that punch. There was still plenty on Canelo's punches towards the end. Frankly G looked like he was pushing his punches at that point, throwing lazy jabs that miss as a response.

With 8 seconds left, Canelo appears to land a pretty hard left hook to the body, it's hard to tell how that landed because the ref is blocking the view. Then with 6 seconds left, Canelo appears to get in a hard right hand to the shoulder / neck area that appears to stagger G as G is throwing (and missing) a right hand of his own. Then Canelo finishes the round by making G miss several punches as he backs away.

G looks exhausted as the fight ends while Canelo has his legs under him. It seems pretty clear to me by the way the 12th round ended who was more tired and exhausted, who had more punch accuracy, more pop on their punches, etc.