Odlh - P4p

Uggghh.

 

He is....watch the films. There is more to boxing than just Defense. That is part of the reason Willie Pep is clearly better than pernell whitaker

 

This post is one of the reasons it's clear you're either biased out of your mind, have not seen much Whitaker, or simply don't analyze fighters skills very good. I think you have pretty good analyzing skills, but you tend to overrate your favorites. Trust me, I've seen the film of Oscar, and a lot of it. There's more to boxing than having textbook technique. Someone who gets outboxed by a steady jab and occasional straight right as he did by Quartey does not qualify as the best boxer in recent times, especially when he gasses 3/4 of the way through fights almost constantly.

There are a few I'd consider better pure boxers, Whitaker most certainly being one of them. If a well past his prime Whitaker could perform that well(and win in my book and many others) against a prime DLH, what does that say about a prime Pea? Whitaker was a much more offensive fighter in his Lightweight prime than people give him credit for. He had one of the best, most efficient jabs of all time, definitely better than Pep's or Oscar's. Not only that, but he was a fantastic counter-puncher, and had a very high workrate for someone considered a defensive specialist, often throwing upwards of 100 punches oer round, 1,000 per fight. That's not what you'd expect from someone who is dubbed a "runner" or someone who relies purely on defense. Pep wasn't a power puncher either, so you can't fault Whitaker for that if your own GOAT has the same problem.

Going a round without throwing a punch(according to myth) also doesn't constitute great offense, neither does terming yourself one who "runs away and lives to fight another day". Whitaker was a better outboxer than Pep, better off the backfoot. He was more skilled in the clinch I'd say as well. In terms of lateral movement and even angles, Pep was likely a bit better, and upper body movement was close between the two.

Pep has his offensive edges, as does Whitaker. Whitaker was better suited to fighting pressure fighters though.

 

Top 50-60

 

Oscar could work well behind the jab, but he was hardly special as a pure-boxer and certainly not the best of his generation.

He had no real finesse.

 

True, he was very technical and had a good arsenal of punches and combinations, but he was also very robotic. And again, he'd either gas late or pace himself too much to conserve energy against top opposition, resulting in losing some key rounds.

 

I'd like to hear about why the best pure boxer of the 1990's got a pure boxing lesson by Shane Mosley.

Of course we could talk about why he got one against a faded Whitaker, but let's even move down a notch and discuss the first Mosley fight - where unlike the Quartey fight, there is no argument whatsoever against the fact that DLH got owned.

 

not the 2nd time, he gave mosely a bad boxing lesson. The first time shane beat him fair and square, but every style has their kyptonite. look at jofre with fighting harada.

 

I wouldnt call 7 rounds to 5 in a close very exciting fight as one fighter getting "owned". Oscar simply faded down the stretch. shanes handspeed was too much for him. the 2nd fight oscar adjusted and beat shane worse than shane beat oscar the first time



You like to talk about decisions.......how bout pernell whitaker himself costing some of his major fights on the cards

 

I am out of my mind because I said willie pep was better than pernell whitaker?


Pernell Whitaker was an ATG, i rate him much higher than most do, and as a southpaw boxer myself I look love studying pernells style. h2h he is a monster, and beats most in history.....however his lack of accomplishments leave alot to be desired. their were many dangerous fighters in the 1990s that he could have fought, that he failed to fight that would have told us just how great pernell really was.

I think prime sweet pea has a strong chance at beating oscar. In fact I would prob pick sweet pea over him. I also think whitaker still was a very good fighter when oscar beat him.


I think your overdramatizing the quartey fight. i will rewatch it but it was a pretty boring fight other than 2 rounds, quartey was not outboxing oscar, he was outjabbing oscar(quite an accomplishment).....but the boxing match between the two was about even. I had quartey up by 1 point going into the 12th and oscars 12th round rally won it for him. The only fighter I ever saw outbox a prime oscar was peak sugar shane mosely in the first fight and that was a deathly close exciting fight that oscar tired in. In the rematch oscar adjusted and badly outboxed shane. I think a old rusted oscar showed vs PBF what he would do had oscar been in his prime

I agree Whitaker had very good straight punching and handspeed(faster than oscars), and threw an underated left uppercut. he was also a good combination puncher not quite as good as oscar in this department but quite good. Sweet Pea did one thing I only saw one other fighter in history ever do, Jersey Joe Walcott, and that was both tripled jab combos to the head, body, back to the head in rapid fire like succession. Whitaker's head movement, shoulder rolls were off the charts, up their with willie pep the two best defensive fighters in history

Oscar threw amazing combinations, they were fluid accurate fast and calculated. his handspeed, jab, textbook boxing skills were off the charts. His two fisted power especially 147lb and below was devastating.



Both Pernell and Oscar rate very high on my all time lists. Whitaker is my # 4 lightweight of all time, oscar is my # 10 welterweight of all time.



Shane Mosely, Felix Trinidad, Prime Ike Quartey all are a step below oscar and sweet pea.......all 3 are very very good fighters but not ATG status.

 

I can't think of a fighter that's gotten more wonky decision's than he has. I thought he lost to Sturm, won against Tito, lost to Pea, haven't seen the Quartey fight. He was soundly beaten by Sugar Shane twice (That's right, twice!). He's certainly no world beater, and I don't consider him an ATG head to head but he is an extremly skilled and talented fighter.

I think it's impressive he was able to make the fight with Mayweather as close as it was at his age, prime Hoya would have won. One of the best of this generation, and I respect him a lot for taking on the best, always, even if the odds were against him. I'm sure money played a role in him choosing the fights he has, but unlike some who take the lowest risk, highest reward road, he often took the highest risk highest reward fights. I like that he can take losses in stride and keep on going. He'll definitely go down in history, not just as a great fighter but also as one of the biggest super-stars in boxing history.

 

Jofre was weight drained and past his prime by the first Harada fight, and Harada was just a flat out better fighter than Mosley.

DLH has no excuse for getting outboxed by Mosley - other than being outwitted and fighting the wrong fight, just like he did against Whitaker as well.

In the second fight, DLH fought the right fight and won in my opinion, but plenty still think Shane won that one too.

It was an 8-4 or 7-5 type of fight CLEAR for Mosley. DLH was clearly outboxed and then outslugged down the stretch. Saying he was "owned" is maybe too harsh, but Mosley definitely got the better of him and proved the better man on the night.

By the way, I think DLH-Mosley I is one of the most overrated fights of the past decade. Oscar was disappointing that night as far as I'm concerned.

As for Whitaker being costed some of his major fights on the cards, I take it you mean the Chavez fight. Well, let's just put it this way, you didn't have 70% of ringsiders thinking Whitaker lost the Chavez fight like they thought DLH lost the second Mosley fight - in fact, there probably wasn't even 7% and that's including Don King and Jose Suliaman and his W(e)B(e)C(rooks) cronies.

 

Oscar is a bit underrated in Classic IMO.

 

I think Oscar De La Hoya is immensley underrated all-time.

I rate him as the 3rd best pound for pound fighter of the 90's behind Whitaker and Holyfield, and in the 40's all-time.