Of the Black heavyweights of the 1920's could any defeat Dempsey?

Dempsey was afraid more so of poor management being a hindrance to his health than losing. When Dempsey expressed his disinterest in fighting Sam Langford it came at a time when he was an underfed and mistreated pug, vulnerable to his lack of preparation.

If Dempsey's management (Kearns) thought that a fight with Wills was the way forward then a match would have been set up very quickly and Dempsey would have been 100% ready, physically and mentally.

Wills may have presented Jack with a whole heap of problems, of this one shouldn't doubt, but more often than not it's the scattered championship reign that Dempsey would later weave that urges a fans grudge that he was never that good anyway, so nailing him to him Wills has become popular food for thought.

Many folks feel cheated by Dempsey and consequently forget that at his best he was a genuine, all time P4P fighter.

Make no mistake the rip-roaring Dempsey from 1918/1919, back when Wills was still a lively beast was the best guy out there. What he was doing to top flight contenders was special.

The outcome of a fight between Dempsey and Wills at this precious time would have likely ended with a game Black Panther being blown away at some point, probably sooner rather than later.

 

You do realise that the only difference between Dempsey and Wills is that Wills is black and as a consequence, never got his chance to prove himself while Dempsey did. Dempsey looks spectacular on film but Wills never got that privilege, either. Would we be talking about Einstein today had his papers been rejected because of his skin color? Would that make him anything less of a genius?

And that is based on what would Dempsey "blow away" Wills?

We know that Dempsey never fought someone remotely as good (in this case, great) as Wills, and we know that the two opponents he did face that come closest to Wills in terms of legacy, gave him hell before he won with a foul (Sharkey) or just beat him so one-sidedly that he had to be guided his way to the dressing room afterwards, despite only fighting for 10 rounds.

You have:

-No film of Wills
-Wills being much, much greater than any opponent Dempsey ever beat

Yet you conclude that Dempsey would "blow away" Harry because...... he's big, and Dempsey destroyed big guys like Willard and Firpo. You do know that both were absolutely horribly skilled boxers, right? That Willard was 37 years old, hadn't fought in 3 years and was 15 lbs overweight? Do you think Dempsey would blow away Holmes, Foreman, Ali, Tyson, Liston and Lewis because they were big and Dempsey destroyed big men like Willard and Firpo too? And make no mistake, Wills certainly does belong in the category of those mentioned.




By the way, whose to say Wills wasn't "starving" like Dempsey was? Certainly he had a harder life, being a black man. Why would Dempsey's promoter have him fight white opponents but not black ones because he was an underfed pug? If he's fit enough to fight a white guy, he's fit enough to fight a black guy.

Then again, he wasn't fit enough to fight Greb, either, who was white.

He was fit enough to fight, then Jeanette jumped into the ring as a replacement (after having taunted Dempsey for more than a year) and suddenly he was not fit enough, or underfed, which is why he left the ring and "gave boxing a black eye", according to a report.

For someone who is this pound for pound, fearless, beast, he certainly let a lot of challenges hang out there. Good thing for him that his supporters say "well he would've walked over them anyway", even when they are far better than anyone he ever managed to beat.

And Wills was every bit his match, resume-wise, yet he is written off as a nobody.

 

you just cant say for sure, no film of wills in his prime. It was highly unfair to the man that promoters and people in his time were so racist

 

It's hard to say who would have beaten Dempsey out of the black contenders of his era. Certainly Wills had the atheleticism and boxing skills to pose a serious challenge to Dempsey's crown. I don't know if the same could be said for McVey, Jeannette, or Ed Martin on pure boxing alone, but based on atheletic skills they all could have given Dempsey very tough fights.

Jack Johnson called out Dempsey more than once and even as an old man in his late 30's and early 40's proposed a challenged that never happened. This was in the "Unforgiveable Blackness" documentary. I think based on skills alone, Jack Johnson would have beaten Dempsey on route to a unanimous decision victory. The main factor in this fight would be the escapability of Johnson and the question of how much footspeed he'd lose due to age. Dempsey was more than capable of catching an aged Jack Johnson, but the question is how much and how severe his shots would be?

 

I know you don't have a great regard for Dempsey Chris,well thats your right.
You are also quite correct in saying that Sharkey gave Dempsey hell.It might be prudent to remember though , that this same Sharkey ,just 9 months earlier gave Wills a bad beating,Wills fouling out to save himself.Sharkey weighed 188 for that fight ,when he met the Mauler he was 196 more filled out and muscular and , as he said himself,at his peak.I don't say Wills was at his own peak ,just demonstrating that Dempsey having problems with him is no disgrace ,especially as Jack himself was not the tear in killer he had been.

 

The color line was the best EXCUSE ever created during the era for White fighters to dodge legitimate 'Heavy Weight' contenders. Although I know HW has always been the 'glamour' division the color line does not seem to have been nearly the problem in other divisions.

The great Benny Leonard, Harry Greb, Canzoneri,Benny Bass, etc..... refused to HIDE behind the pathetic color line(for the MOST part) & did give Blacks a chance at their Titles.
I simply feel the color line was a convenient excuse & Dempsey used it really well. He was a very popular Champ who did much for the sport of boxing because of his agressive style ,but I do not understand why people dismiss his behavior. "He was just a man of his times" doesn't totally fly when Greb,Leonard,CAnozeri,etc... were all men of the times also.
Who knows the man may have been totally indestructible as many here seem to think, but he had the oppurtunity & power to prove it. He refused.

 

Like I said in the other thread, Dempsey wanted fight Wills because hefelt Wills was an easy opponent to beat. I can't say for sure, to be honest, how that fight would have ended.

 

Upon which observations is this estimation made? Most accounts of Wills i have read say he was rather slow of foot and ponderous. A big guy with a decent punch (I disagree with the Ring on this matter) but a bit non-elusive. Does not sound fantastically athletic to me, nowhere near as athletic as the lightning fast, explosive Dempsey.

 

I base my prediction on what I believe to be Wills style.

Now if I am wrong about his style then my prediction is out of the window

 

I fancy Jack over Ed Martin...
Of course Dempsey should have fought Wills and IT is A GIANT STAIN ON HIS RESUME that he didn't. No question. But would Dempsey lose, I dont think so. The top fighters Harry beat were a bit faded, they gave him loads of trouble when they were peak and he was green, no disgrace but wins over Fulton and Firpo while excellent dont, IMO entitle him to the mass adulation he now gets at times. He was good, no doubt and certainly championship class but on his career acheivments and lack of film footage, (discounting the Uzcuden fight) the pedestal he is placed on is a bit of a stretch.

 

I know one thing for sure.

If Dempsey would have beaten Wills he did him no end of a favour by not fighting him.

If the fight had materialised then instead of people speculating whether Wills could have beaten Dempsey we might be talking about how many rounds he could have lasted in his prime.

 

Was Wills that much greater than Sharkey? Who,a year away from his prime ,beat the **** out of him ,Wills fouling out to save himself from a ko.This is the same Sharkey who beat a 29 year old George Godfrey conceding 33lbs to him .Wills would not enter the same room as Godfrey let alone the same ring.

 

Sharkey was unquestionably closer to his prime by far than Wills. Its hard to discredit Wills entire run as a contender for Dempsey based on the Sharkey fight. Harry was probably the best black contender and maybe the best contender period for the HW title when Dempsey won the championship in 1919, SEVEN years before he fought Sharkey. He was 37 yrs old for goodness sakes. Sharkey was 24. Furthermore, its not as if Dempsey just went in and massacred Sharkey lending to an argument of A beat B and B beat C so A must be better than C. Dempsey was losing easily Sharkey when he fouled (and yes Dempsey apologists it was a foul, several in fact its clear as day in the film) his way to victory. Dempsey should have fought Wills at some point between 1919 and 1926, its a major stain on his career and the fact of the matter is that if he and his handlers thought it would be as easy a fight as the Dempsey apologists here think then the fight would have been made in a heartbeat.

 

First I don't think it would have been an easy fight and I have said so.Second, I did not use A beats b so he must beat c as an argument .I put the case of Sharkey in rebuttal to Chris Pontiu's statement that Wills was far better than anyone Dempsey ever beat.
It's quite true that Sharkey was fouled by Dempsey. Sharkey ,if he had a weakness aside from his temperament,did not like it to the body . Dempsey ,being badly outfought ,kept pounding away at the midsection and some went low. The punch that kod Sharkey was a left hook to the jaw however,not to the nuts.The reason the Wills Dempsey fight was not made was political not because Dempsey was afraid of Wills, I think he emphasised that when he took on Sharkey.Wills marked time ,waiting for his deserved shot at the title,fighting well chewed meat,as Dempsey did not meet him so Wills declined to fight Tunney or Godfrey ,and there was nothing political in those decisions.