Of the Black heavyweights of the 1920's could any defeat Dempsey?

Dempsey at least would have ko,d wills mid fight unlike the bloody mess tunney would have made of wills back peddlin and all the while cutting wills to pieces

 

Dempsey made Wills bigger by the fight not happening in retrospect but very few white people knew who Wills was back then but they all knew Dempsey...like Ali he could have fought anyone and drew a crowd

 

Very few white people knew who Wills was? Please?! Its statements like this that show why this argument is based more on ignorance than fact. Wills was far and away Dempsey's best challenger and EVERYONE knew it. Period. There wasnt a paper outside of one published the KKK that didnt acknowledge Wills as the best and most logical contender bar none for Dempsey. In 1922 the New York Daily News held a write in campaign to find out who the public thought was the logical contender for Dempsey. It wasnt even close, thousands of fans from all over the country wrote Wills in by a margin of more than 2 to 1. The question was always IF the fight could get made and people here can say that Dempsey wasnt afraid of Wills but the fact is, as Ive stated before, if he thought Wills would have been as easy as Miske, Carpentier, Firpo etc. He would have been matched with him. Look put Dempsey into perspective, it was no accident he was matched with Miske who he knew was dying, it was no accident he was matched with Bill Brennan who he had already stopped once and who, in the interim had been decisively beaten by Greb FOUR times, it was no accident that he was matched against the totally overrated, smaller Carpentier who had been beaten by every top American he fought or won in controversial fashion, it was no accident that he was matched with Tommy Gibbons who had been decisively outpointed by Greb IN A CHAMPIONSHIP ELIMINATOR, and it was no accident that he was matched with the crude Firpo who Rickard had personally imported from Argentina and built up for the express purpose of getting annhilated by Dempsey. Now, taking all of that into account Dempsey damn near got beat by Brennan, was badly hurt in the second round against Carpentier, struggled with Gibbons, was badly hurt against Firpo, and was finally easily beaten by Tunney (who incidentally was handpicked as well). Dempsey was not unbeatable, his reign isnt even that impressive in my opinion. The guy successfully defended five times in seven years against guys who up to that point hadnt shown they were ready for the bigtime (which is exactly why they were picked, and make no mistake THEY WERE PICKED). As for Wills not fighting any blacks of note for political reasons? Please. The second highest rated black contender next to Wills during the late teens and early twenties was Kid Norfolk. In 1922 Rickard set up an elimination bout between Norfolk and Wills for a shot at Dempsey (or at least thats how he promoted it). Wills knocked out Norfolk in the second round without even breaking a sweat. This is the same Norfolk that Dempsey refused to fight, the same Norfolk that Dempsey refused to spar with during training for Carpentier, and the same Norfolk who made Bill Brennan look so bad in training for the 1920 Dempsey fight that afterwards the newspapers said if Dempsey had that much trouble with Brennan he better go nowhere near Norfolk. Instead of fighting the winner of Wills-Norfolk Dempsey chose to focus on the winner of Greb-Gibbons which was held a week later. Then what happens? Greb eliminates himself by beating Gibbons easily. Funny isnt it? Keep in mind this all happened in 1922 when Wills had already been a logical contender for several years and just a few months after Godfrey was knocked out in back to back losses to an ancient Langford and Jack Thompson. It would be several years before Godfrey could legitimately call out Wills and during those years Wills was still top dog, he earned his place and Godfrey would have to as well.

 

....Did Dempsey ever genuinly, and, on record.. 'draw the colour bar'????

Kearns may be the one to point fingers at...

 

Klompton, Godfrey's manager made 8 attempts to fight Wills. Wills refused, and most of these offers were before Wills lost to Jack Sharkey.

History missed out on a big time fight.

 

This story of Miske being a "dying man" when he fought Dempsey is somewhat overblown ,to say the least.
Dempsey defended against Miske in sept 1920.After being kod Miske fought on for a further 4 YEARS,having 23 fights losing only 1 to Tommy Gibbons. In 1921 Miske had 6 fights beating among others Brennan,and Renault the Renault fight was the prelim bout to Dempsy Carpentier.In 1922 Miske had 15 fights including wins over Renault ,Roper,Weinert,Smith,Meehan and Fulton,the last 3 were all 1 round kos.not bad for a dying man.Miske had 2 fights in 1923,including a ko over Brennan. So 23 fights with one defeat after losing to Dempsey.Miske sure took a long time dying!
You say Carpentier was beaten by every top American ,or won contraversially ,yet Carpentier was the reigning LH Champion ,having beaten Batlling Levinsky,and Carpentier was the LH and European Hvy Champion with ko wins over Beckett and Wells,he surely had a better record against Heavyweights than Foster did against Frazier ,for example..Dempsey was badly hurt against Carpentier?,film shows Dempsey momentarily taking a backward step from a right hand ,this blow hurt Carpentier a lot more than Dempsey ,since it broke his thumb.
You cite Wills destruction of Kid Norfolk in 1922 as proof of Wills dominance as a Coloured challenger.Norfolk was aLH stood 5 9" and weighed 176 to Wills 6 3" 2113/4,and had been fighting LHvy/ Middles ,in Flowers,Greb and Jamaica KID.So its wrong for Dempsey to take on the reigning LH Champ and wreck him ,but laudatory for the 6 inches taller Wills to beat LH Norfolk.Because you state Dempsey did not fight Wills because he thought it would be a hard fight ,does NOT MAKE IT FACT.
I stated that the reason Wills did NOT fight Godfrey was NOT political,imo it was because he was too high risk.Tunney offered to fight Wills,for a shot at Dempsey ,Wills declined,so how was Tunney hand picked?

 

In 1919 right after Dempsey won the championship he was interviewed in Salt Lake City and categorically drew the color line.

How was Tunney hand picked? Because Dempsey's logical challenger had been waiting for seven years to get a shot at the title. Dont forget the reason that the Tunney fight was held in Philly was because Dempsey couldnt get licensed to fight in New York for dodging Wills.

You are more than welcome to believe what you want but Dempsey himself admitted he knew Miske was dying. Miske as Im sure you know had a kidney ailment that had periods of remission. The fact remains, and it was mentioned in the buildup to the fight, that Miske was an ill man and it was no secret at the time. Damon Runyon refused to attend the fight because he knew Miske was sick.

Carpentier was overrated, and wins over Beckett and Wells who were both pretty poor heavyweights by any standard dont change that. Neither does the fact that Dempsey was hurt in the second round by a guy who weighed forty pounds less than the man Dempsey should have been fighting.

 

Miske died of Brights dissease,now more commonly referred to as acute Nephritis.
Among those to fall victim to it ,are Chester Allen President of the US,Alice Roosevelt and Florence Harding ,wives of Presidents,Antonin Dvorak composer ,Richard Sears ,of Sears and Roebuck,and Emily Dickinson author.
Miske was only kod once and ,I beleive only floored in that fight ,by Jack Dempsey.

 

If he was so healthy, then why was Miske a 7-1 underdog, despite having drawn with Dempsey in the past and losing a 6 round newspaper decision in a competitive fight?


Like i've said before, anything beyond 4-1 is considered a mismatch. Pacquiao, who was given no chance against De La Hoya was a only 5:2 underdog.


I can't think of any instance in history where a fighter who has twice lasted the distance, one being even and the other a competitive loss, suddenly becoming a mismatch of an opponent in the rubber match, when they are still both young. Did Holyfield become a 7-1 underdog in the third fight with Bowe?

Cleary this only happens when something special is going on, in this case the onset of a terminal disease.



And tell me how giving a man you have twice beaten already, and who went 3-3-3 in his last nine fights is a good title defence when Wills is out there, smashing everyone around including the ones you refused to fight like Langford and Jeanette?



As for Sharkey beating Wills, that doesn't prove a thing. Sharkey at 24 beating a 37 year old Wills, yeah great. Wills has the better resume and Dempsey refused to fight him during his entire prime, and he most certainly was the better man than Sharkey during those years; not when he was 37, no. Just because 'arry got beat when he was 37 doesn't all of a sudden make the historic record of ducking him for 7 years void.

 

If he was so sick how come he had another 23 fights over 3 years and beat all but one of his opponents ,including ranked contenders,indeed in his last fight he kod Brennan in 4 rds?
Odds on fights mean Jack **** ,what were the odds for the 1st Louis Schmeling fight?
The 1st Liston Clay fight,the Braddock Baer fight ,the Tyson Douglas fight ?
Actually one of the fights with Miske was a draw.
Wills smashing everyone around ?

Thats good.In 1921 ,when Dempsey fought Miske, Wills fought these name fighters.
A finished Gunboat Smith in Havana in Smith's last fight." I only went down for the boat ride"
A 40 year old Joe Jeannette,whom you think Dempsey was avoiding!
A 40 year old Denver Ed Martin

 

In 1921 ,when Dempsey kod Miske, Langford was a fat old veteran of 39 and was beaten that year by Dempsey's sparring partner Bill Tate,Langford ,at that stage of his career ,would not have been a competitve match for Dempsey.

If you study Wills fights against Langford ,it can be seen that Sam more than holds his own in the early fights,inflicting a ko on Wills when Sam is in his early 30's.Wills started to dominate the series as Langford aged. Between 6 foot 3 and 4in , to Langfords 5 61/2"and considerably younger and bigger, it would be surprising if Wills did not beat Langford really.That said Langford was more competitive into his late 30s than Wills who was dominated by Sharkey and Uzcudon.

 

He put out mixed signals.

He first said that he would draw it, later that he wouldnt, and possibly changed his mind again.

 

Either way, 80 years later, we now know the REAL answer. He drew the color line.

 

When you say you draw the color line and then refuse to fight the overwhelming concensus contender who just happens to black... Id say he drew the color line :roll:

Dempsey defended against Miske in 1920, not 1921. In that year Wills knocked out Fred Fulton in a match that was supposed to decide who got a shot at Dempsey. In addition to that he stopped langford who that same year knocked out George Godfrey, the same George Godfrey that Wills supposedly ducked. Miske had been diagnosed with Brights Disease earlier that year. Brights/Nephritis, as you should know, is characterized by periods of remission which would explain some of his later success. It was well documented that Miske was ill for his defense with Dempsey. I even have an article where he tries to diffuse the bad publicity by saying that the pain he was experiencing in his lower back (kidney) was actually a pinched nerve in his hip. That article is from right before the fight. That, combined with Dempsey's own statements and the statements of people like Runyon is enough for me. In order to get that shot Miske accomplished the impressive :rofl feet of knocking out the completely hapless Jack Moran. It was Miske's first fight in over a year and his very next fight two months later was for the championship. You wanna argue he deserved it more and was a better contender than Wills? There went your credibility.

As for the Brennan/Miske fight that fight was a fix. Afterwards Brennan was banned for not trying and his purse was held and donated to charity by the local boxing commission.

Later in 1920 Dempsey defended against Brennan, who as mentioned above, had already been knocked out by Dempsey once, had been made to look foolish in sparring by Norfolk, and who wasnt given a snowballs chance in hell of beating Dempsey but very nearly did just that. I wont recount the long list of retreads he fought (and didnt always beat or look good against) to get that fight. Greb tried to get a fifth fight with Brennan as an eliminator for Dempsey but Leo P. Flynn, Brennans manager refused. he didnt want anymore of Greb's game after Greb easily defeated his man in their four previous engagements. Wanna argue that Brennan deserved it more?

 

I have never said Wills did not deserve a title shot ,or that Brennan deserved one more.

In 1921 Wills kod Fulton in3 rds ,you say this was an eliminator to decide who challenged Dempsey . The inference being that when Wills duly won Dempsey ducked him,yet Dempsey had ruined Fulton in 1 round two years earlier,how did he come into the reckoning as a worthy challenge for the title?This is the same Fulton who a "dying" Miske would ko in 1 round in 1922 right?