Of the filmed middleweights, who do you think belongs CLEARLY above Hopkins h2h?

Lamotta fought Lloyd Marshall, Bert Lytell, Robinson x 6, Basora x 3. When Lamotta was a ranked MW Charles was already at LHW and Moore was gone about a year later. Your portrayal of Jake as avoiding the best is hardly accurate. You're criticising his fights against Robinson yet i'm sure you would go on to rate the DLH and Trinidad wins as some of B-Hops signature victories.

I agree with most of your shouts here Kalambay, MCCallm and Nunn are a couple in recent times i'd endorse to be diffucult for him too. Hard to back it up considering his premature death but i'm a firm believer in Dave Sands.

 

1. I didn't say avoided, but the fact is that he didn't fight them. And he had ample opportunity to fight top MWs like Burley, Williams (in his prime) and Graziano. I don't know why these fights didn't materialize, but the fact is that they are scalps he doesn't have. So the question is, which are the great MWs he did face and beat?

2. He lost to Marshall and split a series of three with Basora.

3. LaMotta was 15 lbs heavier than than Robinson, without having to make weight, the one time out of six he won against him.

As for DLH and Trinidad... Nah, I don't find them that extremely impressive as wins even though Hopkins didn't have anything like 15 lbs on them in the ring, and did have to make weight (a catch weight against DLH as well). The actual performance against Trinidad, the way he totally dismantled him like no one before or after - that wasn't bad, though.

 

You probably don't realize that Lytell, in addition to being a southpaw, won his series against Holman, went 3-0 against Cocoa Kid who demolished Holman 8-3-1 in their series, and went 1-1 with Burley. That win alone embarrasses any scalp Hopkins has to put up against it.

Also Lamotta won his series with Basora who beat Holman multiple times including one win and a draw while he was in his prime. I do think most overrate Lamotta quite a bit in an all time sense but your criticism and characterization of him is shameful.

I love how you criticize Jake who had a dozen fights against these types of guys then bring up Graziano. Graziano is possibly the most overrated MW in history and the poster boy for a carefully managed career.

He literally didn't fight a single MW leading up to his undeserved title shot. He beat up a couple utterly washed up WW's and managed to avoid every single MW contender, even half decent ones, in the deepest era ever for his entire career. Beating a shot Zale in a series he lost is the only thing he has. You want to hold someone in contempt use Graziano.

 

You're clutching at straws. I don't hold Graziano in very high regard, and never said I did. But he was one MWs that was consistently high in the Ring rankings in the second half of that mythical decade, so certainly he merits a mention among possible opponents.

If Hopkins has something like a win over Lytell or not is very hard to say without film, but surely a record of a legendary MW can't rest on victories over Lytell? Then Barkley, who beat Hearns, must be great too, no?

And we do know that Hopkins didn't lose to WWs (SRR and Zivic) or the likes of Dauthille, Hudson, Janiro etc. Yes, LaMotta fought much more frequently and was bound to pick up more losses. But then he should have been bound to pick up more wins against top comp as well. And he didn't. That's the bottom line.

I'm not critizing LaMotta. He had a hood enough career. I'm critizising fans that think he merits to be mentioned among the greatest MWs. He doesn't.

 

Well i'd agree with that and like i mentioned do think most overrate him. At the same time i'm sure Hopkins record would look much more spotty if he fought 85-95 at MW and that's not factoring in the leisurely 2 or 3 fights per year schedule he had. Where do you rate Hopkins at MW all time.

 

There are a lot of guys at middle in a similar bracket that will make for hard competitive fights imo.

I'm not sure i have anyone that stands out clearly h2h.Hopkins would have his chances with all of the excellent, arguably great and all-time ones, other than maybe the rare stylistic roadblock that can pop up, but there aren't many i would say he's clearly ahead of himself to the point of not being worth discussion either.

 

I think only Jones definitely beats him. There's plenty that might beat him.

I see the biggest myth in boxing history made it into the thread, Jack Lamotta. No way in hell does Lamotta beat Hopkins or any elite MW who is actually a MW

 

I think you're misinterpreting history if you are criticizing Lamotta for missing Graziano...

Anyway it is legitimate to say that Lamotta did beat many smaller guys. It is not a criticism to say that he did not fight top opposition. Basora, Jimmy Edgar, Robinson, Jackie Wilson, Zivic, Coley Welch, Marshall, George Kochan, Vic Dellirutti, Lytell, Tommy Bell, Holman Williams, Tony Janiro, Dauthuille, Villeman, Cerdan, Tiber Mitri, Bob Murphy, Norman Hayes, Eugene Hairston. The only guy on that list he didn't beat at least once was Marshall.

 

Are we sure we shouldn't really be comparing him to the light heavyweights of the past? He's as big as Jersey Joe Walcott. Does anybody know if he even stayed below 160 on fight night or if like so many others he's only 160 for an hour the day before a fight? He started at light heavyweight. He's finishing at light heavyweight. And in his last fight he weighed 179.

We shouldn't be comparing him to Freddie Steele or Stanley Ketchel. We should be comparing Jones, Toney, and Hopkins to light heavyweights like Charles, Moore, and Bivins.

 

I don't think LaMotta beats Hopkins...I would take Bernard by decision. But I do think LaMotta's level of competition at middleweight is better. However, if you factor in what Hopkins did in the higher weights? Then you may have to give it to Hopkins...

 

Except Lamotta probably didn't actually beat the young green Lytell he fought, many newspapers had it to Lytell, some as wide as 8-2. He certainly got a gift against Villemain and probably Yarosz, both fights happening shortly after he took his famous dive for the 'mob'.

Holman beat Basora numerous times and was well past it when Basora started to get the better of him.

Agreed that Graziano was well managed and a protected fighter.

 

his middleweight resume is not so impressive other than longevity, his best wins were over welterweights Delahoya and Trinidad so as a middleweight he falls behind Greb,SRR, Monzon,Hagler,Walker,Ketchel,Steele,LaMotta, etc. maybe top 10-15 but his overall greatness 160-175 in intact just hard to rate him too high based on length and lack of depth