Old Foreman v Young Frazier

One of Joe's main problems in the first fight was that his best punches had little effect on George (see 1:04 and 1:17), but the reverse was not true. George's superior power took a considerable toll on Joe when he landed.




[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8EQTa1cbM[/ame]



A different fighter might have made adjustments and avoided trying to press forward toe-to-toe with George, but Joe only fought one way. Coming forward and throwing bombs.

George's granite chin would not readily succumb to such tactics, whereas Joe was unable to absorb George's bombs for long.

That version of George probably beats Joe ten times out of ten.



Putting that version of Joe against old George could well have the same result. However, old George was not as devastating a puncher and not as mobile, and for that reason, I think Joe would be favoured to take a points win or even get George out on stamina late on.

That said, at any point in the fight, Old George had the tools to drop Frazier, and if he did, that would probably be the beginning of the end for Joe.


Most likely outcome: Joe on points with George having a serious shot at the upset.

 

Peak Frazier had the extra range and timing lacking in jamaca. Frazier never could afford to take shots to land shots against foreman and that would not have been the case if a 1970 joe fought george. Young Foreman was a monster of power but him taking shots to land his own would reduce foremans prowess significantly. Even Young foreman against prime frazier is a different fight. Old foreman against 5"5"" losing streak qawi (with a strapped up knee) was getting beaten to the punch all night. Against prime frazier this would have been fatal.

 

Why would he not be getting hit on the way in? For example, George managed to tag the more mobile Holyfield with his jab often. He was not able to do much with the uppercut since Holyfield was always out of range, but that punch would come into play against Frazier, I have no doubt.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this, because it's probably the most overlooked dynamic of the first fight.
It was a bad matchup styles-wise for Joe, but the fact that Foreman walked right through his best shots, and proceeded to belt the heck out of Frazier, is maybe the main reason Joe lost.

If a fighter is punching a brick wall and nothing's happening, then that fighter, especially a pressure fighter, is in deep trouble.
I don't see how it would be any different against Old George.

 

Because Frazier was pin point at his prime. His range was better and he met opponents with his punch, the other guy couldn’t hit him first because fraziers timing for a short time was on another level. How many times did he clip ali and make ali miss in TFOTC? ali stood his ground and would try to meet Joe on the way in but often joe got their first -and that’s Ali! The angle and distance of attack that prime Frazier used is underrated and unsurpassed. very hard to predict and time.

Getting back to Holyfeild (at the time he met foreman) he was a manufactured heavyweight who built himself up and did not have the natural cardio to maintain a consistent boxing rhythm as a heavyweight. In his earlier heavyweight career holyfeild often stood off and bounced up and down on his toes with no intention of fighting - he was gassed but would disguise it, it was these periods and these periods only that he could be caught "out of range" by just about anyone. Holyfeild was not considered the complete article at that time as a heavyweight.

 

The most important dynamic of Fravier v Foreman was the fact that Frazier had lost the ability to land first at elite level. The edge Prime Frazier had over the entire cast of top heavyweights for about 4 years was his ability to manoeuvre his way in (without getting hit) and time and double up a hook from an awkward angle landing before the other guy was ready. yes joe got hit but often it was within an exchange, far less damaging when the other guy is already hurt and on the back foot.

Frazier was still useful contender level after TFOTC but he was having to absorb on the way in because his eyes were no longer as good. Fine against bugner, faded ellis and faded quarry and Ali but not a monster of power like foreman. That’s how Foreman beat Frazier. Joe was already fighting outside of his era. every opponent Frazier got after the first Ali fight was a 1960s guy apart from bugner and Foreman.

 

Old George was big enough, tough enough and most of all wise enough to look better than he was with the right matchmaking. Having lived through the whole thing I don’t remember him being taken seriously by a single boxing person until after the holyfeild fight -and even then it was only as an opponent -not as a "could be champ".

There were a lot of "could be champs" around that were ahead of George but mainstream sports fans loved the whole old man foreman bandwagon (that George was very aware of) so he was able to leapfrog worthy contenders in lucrative fights that suited him. People don’t know or don’t remember the whole beef burger shtick Foreman was giving it! the man was a tough old guy but still only a part time veteran fighter in real terms. cherry picking matches.... Old george was a salesman.


Imagine you are frazier, You get to fight a guy like old foreman who you can get up close too, find the angle, hit him hard before he can respond, shift your feet and hit him again from the other side - all before the poor old ******* moves...

 

Joe was not done at top level but he was no longer able to dominate as a champion can. Hed paid his dues for about 4 years already and that is wear and tear. Frazier was always a heck of a fighter but he was having to stand and trade with ron ****in stander who would not have bothered him before TFOTC. Frazier was still great against guys from his own generation like quarry in their rematch but against a younger, great fighter like Foreman joe didnt have that extra special something.

 

Frazier would always beat Ali if the ref controlled the clinching, anyone else would have had points deducted.

 

I gotta say I like Choklab's line of thought on this subject...

I think Young Foreman versus FOTC Frazier is not quite the foregone conclusion some may think...