Old George Foreman vs. HW Roy Jones

but not breakfast :cheers

 

I'm comparing Jones Jr to Michael Moorer. Foreman knocked him out, it was hard knockout. Foreman's strength and size - for me Foreman's victory. Jones has little chance to beat Foreman by UD, but i see Foreman win.

 

I like Roy, but even the Big George who lost to Briggs would beat Roy...in my opinion. No way could Roy get through 12 rounds with him without being hit hard at least once...again, in my opinion.

 

He did in a relative sense. The Ruiz did not prove that he could handle average HWs, it proved that he could handle Ruiz. Jones foray was brief.

That's not my point. This has nothing to do with the foolish idea that Jones survives Foreman.

Foreman, old or young, is among the most physically powerful of any HW who ever lived. Fighting him was like fighting a wall and there are no HWs who easily moved him backwards or did anything more than get of his way when he came in. He could hit like hell and everyone knew it, it seems, except for you.

So yes, Foreman was uber powerful. That doesn't mean he wasn't also uber ponderous.

Foreman's power is what it is. His slowness of hand and foot effected his ability to register KOs at times but that is not due to "lack of power". You're confusing different items.

Anything's possible.

Your dismissal of frames as a critical factor is surprising. Would you encourage boxing to remove weight divisions and throw safety out of the window?

.............
Jones made overtures about fighting an old, fat, rusty, formerly clinically dead Buster Douglas. He changed his mind. Do you remember why?

 

I try :good

 

That I can't speak on because I don't know. This dispute isn't mine or anyone else's business out here but I do hope that you have PM'd Magoo and withdrew your withdrawal of your apology.

 

Problem is, I can't even be sure if I got it, because I never received the last one. Kinda makes me feel like an ass that I layed into him about the whole thing.

 

I agree that it's a career too brief to call it a legacy maker (as is Tunney's at HW in my opinion), but the one piece of evidence we have, does show that Jones beat one of the more accomplished heavyweights of that period rather easily.

Regardless of terminology, his stopping power was far from impressive and that's a fact.

Well, let me make it clear that i don't see it as a certainty that Jones goes the distance. I'm just saying that i don't think it's the "Foreman KO's him the first time he breaths out" situation that many here portray.

The weight class remark is just weird. I've called many fights based on the bigger guy having too much of a size advantage and often gone against the grain in saying that Liston isn't the big godzilla that many perceive him to be, based one fights against cruiserweights.

However, that doesn't mean that a great smaller fighter can beat a good bigger fighter. Because let's face it, comebacking Foreman as a seperate entity wasn't more than "good" and his record backs this up.

I will also add that while i'm sure Foreman CAN knock Jones out, before losing the weight, Jones showed a very sturdy chin. He only suffered one single flash knockdown until the age of 35. Not many men can claim that and certainly Foreman can't. Of course he wasn't taking those punches from heavyweights, but my point is that it takes more than breeze to knock him out. Ruiz did connect with some good shots and nothing happened.

 

I'm with you on Tunney. Sure Jones beat Ruiz, which is an accomplishment (though you know I seriously suspect that he was disgustingly roided up) but that is cherries to Foreman's squash. (Eeesh.)

It would be on a little guy! And his physical strength and presence was top 1% ever.

Yes, you have recognized the advantage of bigger guys. And I have recognized that there are exceptions to size and power. What prompted that remark was your insistence that Foreman's difficulty with knocking out other heavyweights somehow suggests that he would have difficulty stopping or physically overwhelming a 5'11 SMW/LHW in Jones. It was an irrelevant comparison. Morrison, a large man, is designed to deal with large men. Both Jones Jr. and Sr. knew and admitted that large men are too dangerous -even half-dead Douglas was considered too dangerous. Ruiz was a risk, but correctly considered less so than Douglas. Foreman was never mentioned.

I respect your objective measure, but Foreman's comeback is what launches him into all time greatness in the opinion of many. Including me. The idea of a 45 year old man reclaiming a title he lost 20 years earlier is the stuff of legend.

I think that Foreman's second career has to be considered with qualifiers. That's an old man in there... give him a break. I don't see how anyone can see the Foreman who beat Cooney with such ease doesn't roll right over Jones.

We can debate all day about that. The Jones Chin wasn't tested enough in his prime. You will say it was because of his supreme reflexes and I will agree, but will add that he generally avoided dangerous guys and admitted doing the same.

I don't hold that Jones chin was glass, but it was by no means a sturdy chin. And I don't buy that Tarver was anything more than a decent puncher.

 

Well.

On the steroids, i will say one thing. Yes, i think it's pretty obvious Jones was on them, but so were (are) a lot of guys. Holyfield for one, Morrison is another and the list may be a lot bigger than we think. Foreman may have been on them as well. He is a salesman at heart and knows that he has to do whatever it takes, especially at his old age. The fact that he was fat does not mean much, either; Toney is a lot more fat but is on them, still.

Now i don't want to turn this into a "no he was yes he wasn't" kind of thing, but it is a fact that we simply don't know who was on them on who wasn't. For all we know, they all are.

One thing is for certain, though. As much as it is cheating, a natural 170lbs guy vs a natural 230lbs guy isn't exactly fair, either.

Well he'd barely made the leap to LHW at that point so i'm not too sure about how serious he was. But you're right, fighting a heavyweight is always dangerous. He was offered to fight Sanders in 2003 but wisely declined. In hindsight, it would've been better if he'd been destroyed by him than by Tarver.

It IS an amazing accomplishment, but what i'm saying is that while his age makes him a greater fighter, it does not make him a better boxer in the ring. He was still a 44 year old man on his last legs who needed three undeserving title shots to do the trick and went on to avoid anyone with a pulse.

Why should he be given a break? Like i said, just because he's old doesn't mean we should give him a break when considering these matchups. Jones is a tiny man by comparison, that doesn't mean we should give him a break.

Okay, but how many guys who started at middleweight that went on to dominate a LHW (185lbs) division for seven years can you think of, that only suffered a grand total of one flash knockdown before the age of 35? You can repeat that he avoided dangers, but the only one you can really say that about is Michelczweski, who made unrealistic financial demands himself. Toney, Hopkins, Ruiz, Hill, Griffin 2x, Johnson (who had the tremendously durable Toney nearly knocked out), Hall, McCallum, Brannon, Wolfe, Sosa; they were all fairly big punchers, great fighters or bigger men, and none of them knocked him down.

Again, most fighters suffer at least one or several moments of seriously being hurt in their carreers, often by the hands of "lesser" opponents, yet this never happened to Jones. You gotta admit that is impressive. Regardless of his reflexes, he DID get tagged.

 

I'd say you've made quite a few solid points and in general I agree with most of what you are saying with one notable exception.

Roy Jones jr has a far better chin that most give him credit for. His chin was fine up until the first fight with Tarver. Then it went to ****. The reason for this is the weight loss. Now at first, my instincts told me that it is was plausible but given the fact that throughout most of his career Jones was rarely hit I thought maybe he hid it well all these years.

Then Enter Chris Byrd, a fighter who most would agree with that has a pretty decent chin. He's been in there with big punchers Tua, Wlad 2x, Vitaly, Ibeabuchi, McCline (not quite the 1 shot guy but at 270lbs you'd figure he got something right?). And despite being in there with these punchers, he's 3-3 with 2 KO losses to Ibeabuchi and Wlad Klitschko. Nothing to write about but definately not a glass jaw. All of a sudden he moves down in weight to become a LHW. And he fights a journeyman with modest power and he's knocked down all over the place. That fight confirmed for me that Roy Jones's claim of weight loss was legit.

So if we are taking the Jones from the Ruiz fight, that Roy Jones IMO has a pretty sturdy chin.

 

Okay, we've been throught this before. My view on the steroid thing is that it is a problem, but I'm not so cynical about it... it's a damn shame that the states aren't diligent with testing. Frankly it makes me sick.

Agreed.

Functionally, I'd agree that Foreman wasn't "great" after 37. He was a difficult fighter to overcome though, and no little guy is gonna do it. I have this image of Primo Carnera and Tommy Loughren in my head...

This is far more a product of style than it is of chin. Roy did not prefer to mix it up or take risks in or out of the ring. Many fighters who we consider as having suspect chins can take a shot here and there, but when softened up and then nailed, it's a different story.

 

Well done.

My opinion differs slightly... Roy did not have a glass jaw in his prime. Nor did he have a good chin. He had spectacular reflexes and a defensive oriented style. His chin was below average, but he deserves to be credited for his ability to fight hard punchers and avoid getting touched enough to prove it.

 

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But, when applying the " dropped weight " theory I think you have to also factor into the equation that both Chris Byrd and Roy Jones were past their primes for the fights that you made reference to. In fact, it is probable that being over the hill had more to do with it than anything else. I think Chris was like 38 and losing fights when he descended in weight. As for Jones, he was like 34 and declining, but I'm not so sure that fighting at lightheavyweight was the issue. He had after all, been fighting at those weights for several years, and even went the distance winning a decision in the first Tarver match.

 

Jones UD