Old George Foreman vs. HW Roy Jones

Sorry but explain to me how someone can have a "below average" chin and only suffer a total of one flash knockdown in his entire career until the age of 35, when facing several legends, hard punchers and many bigger men?

I've asked you before and you didn't respond, but tell me how many middleweights that fought 185lbs guys for seven years were only down on one occasion in their entire career before 35 and never seriously hurt? And don't start about his [Roy's] opposition, i already explained in my last post how he fought several big hitters, bigger men and great fighters, who DID land on him, and nothing happened. There used to be a video on this, but i can't find it anymore.

Sure, that's actually quite a good example. Carnera and old Foreman are similar in that both were big, strong men, both had a high knockout percentage but weren't really that big a puncher, but did have one highlight KO (Sharkey and Moorer). Carnera was too big and strong for Loughran, but Loughran did go the distance. And Roy is no Loughran.

"He preferred not to mix it up." Yeah what do you expect? You have the best reflexes in the world and can beat anyone from a distance. Why the heck should you mix it up then??? It's called boxing, not bar room brawling, and i expected you to be able to appreciate such a thing.

By the way, Jones did spend time covering up on the ropes where his opponent could soften him up and then nail him. Many did and some succeeded. Hopkins for instance. What happened after he softened Jones up on the ropes, and later landed several flush right hands? Exactly, nothing happened, unlike you are claiming. You don't have a below average chin when you take that like it's nothing.


And to state he "did not take risks in or out of the ring" is downright ignorant. He fought 48-0 James Toney, who was the consensus pound for pound #2, while simultanously stepping up in weight. Beat Bernard Hopkins. Fought and knocked out 9-2 and 16-1 guys in his 2nd and 3rd pro fight. Fights a 230lbs heavyweight titleholder while starting his career at 154lbs without any warmup fight against a heavyweight journeyman or a cruiserweight, but leaps from lightheavyweight.

Like i said, to say he didn't take risks is downright ignorant or biased, or both.

 

foreman wins before end of third round,if foreman comes out swinging though its cooney vs norton all over again

 

Although I think old-age Foreman is a bit overrated by some, this always amuses me:

...as it always seems to be a stick to beat a 44-year old man with, yet there never seems to be any mention that it was one title shot less than Tony Tucker received. :huh

 

Don't be such a cement-headed literalist. I'm on record as crediting Jones wins over Hopkins, Toney, and Ruiz. I also give him his due for fighting Tarver II and III, Calzaghe, and Sheika. My problem with Roy is the same as Roy's problem with Roy -that he didn't accept nearly enough challenges during his prime (between Toney and Ruiz -that's almost 9 years). It's the problem that his apologists gloss over or inflate. Roy Jones -from the beginning was not a fighter who was going to take any more risks than he absolutely had to. He has said this himself after Benn-McClellan (which haunted him since it happened). So he spends his best years against municipal workers when he should have been fighting lions for legacy.

Evidently, the Roy Jones Jr. of Chris Punchdrunk's world is a sturdy-chinned warrior and giant killer who could be favored to defeat George Foreman.

Yet you fail to acknowledge his deficiencies -deficiencies that he himself has acknowledged.

You can't even bring yourself to suspect that his chin may have been below average --mind you, not glass, but simply below average! In one breath you scoff that he didn't like to mix it up because he had great reflexes and in the next you're asserting that his chin was therefore solid like a rock. It is more than sensible to hold that his chin held up more because of his reflexes, style, and risk-averse disposition. The Hopkins evidence was as inane as offering up as "evidence of his good chin" the shots he took in Tarver III.

Jones the willing warrior? Iron-Jaw Jones? I suspect historical revisionism. I smell bias.

Here's a more accurate (and informed and fair) overall picture:

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

That's true. During the 80's i can understand it a bit as he looked good and had a lot of knockouts (over mediocre opposition), but how in God's (or King's) name he was granted the "mandatory" status so often in the 90's...

Call me a cement-headed literalist all you want, but it's unfair to label Jones as not taking risks, when he clearly did. Maybe not as many as you would've wanted him to, but that's a different story...


As for him avoiding all these challengers, who were they? Okay - we've established Tiger Michalczewski, who made unrealistic financial demands and didn't want to come out of German. I'm not saying this justifies them not squaring off, but just saying.

Then, who are there? McClellan was nearly pushing the daisies in 95. Benn was shot after their bout. Eubank was far past his best as well, and just lost to the good but not great Collins by late '94 or early '95 and couldn't really impress to re-establish himself.

It would've been nice if he fought one of them, but let's be honest, they would've been one-sided massacre's at this point, and waved away as "old" by his critics, the same way McCallum was.


So, where is this pletoria of fighters that he ducked? He beat all the LHW's except Tiger. Hopkins priced himself out of a rematch, that Jones did not need after his easy victory. Toney, dito.


Plus, saying that he did not take a risk between Toney and Ruiz is widely exaggerating. Hill, undefeated Griffin 2x, Johnson, Hall, etc were all decent fighters, and they were all of the same size that the classic heavyweights made their legacy at.


And like you said yourself, fighting Calzaghe at age 39 and re-matching Tarver are not things someone who takes no big risks would do.

Sure, make a strawman argument if it suits you.

Why do you say that? I've said just one page earlier:

And you, for the third time, can't name a fighter who is known to have an below-average chin, who was floored only one time without being seriously hurt before the age of 35, when 20 lbs over his natural weight and having shipped punchers from big hitters, legends and bigger men.

In fact, what constitutes a below-average chin at all? Could you name examples so i can put it in perspective?

And another strawman argument. Don't put unrealistic words in my mouth so you can refute those instead of the ones i really said.


I have called Jones neither a willing warrior nor Iron-Jaw Jones. But the facts are that someone who does not take risks does not fight 9-2 and 16-1 opponents in his 2nd and 3rd pro fight, does not take on the 48-0 undefeated, consensus p4p #2 when taking the first leap in weight, does not challenge a 220lbs man a HW belt when coming from middleweight, etc etc.

Well, that's your opinion and i have mine. Back to topic.

Jones UD old Foreman.

 

Chris: Sorry about 'butting in' on your fine debate with StoneHands last night, I'd had a few ales after celebrating Liverpool not winning the league championship again and decided i'd have a go at another pet hate 'Tony Tucker'. :yep

 

Jones did not take enough risks to earn him the accolades that his apologists afford him. More on that below.

You are way off point with this. Jones fought a steady diet of non-threats and avoided several threats. You may be right that he would have been favored to beat them, but no one was even taking odds on most of the guys he did choose to fight.

...and McCallum was in his fortieth year. Come on.

If you remove your tinted glasses you might acknowledge that he is fighting to redeem a legacy squandered during his prime years.

Stand by your words. We were debating the merits of Roy's chin. You believe that it is sturdy. I don't. You overstate and exaggerate his defeat of Ruiz to mean that he could compete against larger heavyweights and even claim that he can beat George. There was nothing straw about my retort.

His less than stellar warrior credentials.

Actually, I don't feel like doing the research. It would be a waste of time. And I already told you why.

Sure... Hearns. Now let's see if you can see how it is that their chins are comparable but their styles made it seem less so.

You were getting stupid with a statement that I made and so I returned the favor.

I'll amend it for you:

Anyone who holds that Jones was a sturdy-chinned warrior is fooling themselves. (You are free to decide if it applies to yourself.)

For the third time, Jones took risks, but not enough of them to reserve a place anywhere near the elites of the sport. Just like he did not prove that he could handle either Foreman or Foreman's opponents with one win over a stylistic match like Ruiz.

You should take your own advice and acknowledge what I've said/ clarified.

Finally.......

Benn was "shot" after the McClellan bout...? You are really stretching it to excuse Roy. Benn was banging in 1995 and still dangerous... Roy may have had a little fear of Benn who was indeed made of different stuff.
Eubank and Collins were past their best or just good? These were live guys who could have made his rep at SMW (at least for purists who see straight)!

Geez. Where do I begin?

He didn't want to fight Nunn. He offerd Nunn $125,000 to his 3 million. He turned down Charles Brewer. Both dangerous fights.

Benn
Nunn
Brewer
Frankie

This content is protected

Steve Collins
Chris Eubank

--all of these were active in 95-96. Ring Magazine rated these guys and Jones in the top 4 from 94 through 96. But Jones didn't fight them. Perhaps he felt like his work was done after he gave Toney a well-deserved whooping. Jones fought lesser known and lesser regarded nondescripts like Antoine Byrd, Vinnie Paz, Tony Thornton, Eric Lucas, and Bryant Brannon. That is decidely unimpressive considering who he could have fought!

In 1995, Jones fought a midget named Paz and a mailman. He could have easily faced any number of the men listed above. He chose not to.

In 2000, Tarver finally became a number LHW one contender. Jones had his manager, Murad Muhammad write a letter questioning his credentials to be number one. Read between the lines. Jones didn't want to face Tarver -and didn't for 3 years.

He priced himself way out of a Nunn fight. He didn't want to fight

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

. It was Roy who wouldn't fight either of them. Roach tried to get both fights. Any insinuation that these guys were somehow equally to blame for not fighting Jones is crazy talk. Jones was the boss. He was the superstar. He called the shots.

Jones was an undeniable powerhouse in the mid 90s at SMW (which is his natural division, Chris). He was IBF champion. That's one belt. Why didn't he try to unify the titles? I'll tell you why. Because Benn was WBC champion -not Brannon. Because

This content is protected

was WBA champion and Roy didn't like

This content is protected

right hook or his tall southpaw stance. Roy didn't even bother with the WBO belt... Because Collins was champ and Roy knew that Collins was a hard man.

--now, do you really believe that Collins,

This content is protected

, and Benn would turn down the millions that they would make fighting a superstar like Jones? OR... is it more likely that Jones (armed with his HBO contract which meant guaranteed millions no matter what contender he chose to fight) turned them down because he knew he'd get millions anyway...?

.................
He should have and didn't fight Darius. That's obvious. The rest of that

This content is protected

should be coming into view, at least for the honest ESB Classic poster. Will you be

This content is protected

? Or will you wash your hands of your more untenable assertions and be

This content is protected

?

 

One shot.
Thats all George would need.
The only heavyweight that Jones fought was Ruiz who couldnt really break an egg and he still was very careful not to get hit.
Against George, Jones would not be able to tie him up like he did Ruiz.
George was much too strong.
And thats all George would need --- one shot.

 

jones would have never have signed for this fight to start with.

 

bull**** he wouldn't have. He was willing to sign with Corrie Sanders right after he handed Wladimir Klitschko his lunch and for far less money.... If he was willing to fight a fast handed south paw who had just iced a superheavyweight champion in two rounds for a fraction of the purse, then I don't see him having a problem signing to fight Foreman.

 

What the **** dont you understand about the simple fact that Foreman is to slow slow to land on RJJ.

I think your obvious dislike of Rot is coloring your vision Foreman lacks the speed of hand and foot and footwork to ever ''close'' in on Roy . If Roy choses to jab and move i dont see Foreman touching him Foreman trying to close in on Roy will only tire himself out.

 

Stonehands,

how exactley is a wide slow telegraphing blow from a 45 year old man actually going to land on a speed freak like jones?

 

I think the general idea, is that the " wide telegraphing blow " only has to land ONCE. That said, I still give Jones a good chance at beating Foreman, but I can see where Stone is coming from....

 

---Who's this idiot? Run along and leave the big boys alone.

 

Suzie, you know well that those wide shots weren't all that Foreman threw. His jab came right down the pike and could be devastating. He'd throw chopping right overhand hooks that probably felt like the roof fell in on you. And many of those "wide, slow telegraphing blows" had a purpose that your missing: These were often controlling punches. Foreman would throw wide shots to the arm and torso of his man to force him into range of something more leveraged. He didn't just do that on Moorer. He based a large part of his grand, second-career strategy on forcing younger, faster men to deal with hellish psychological and heavy physical pressure until they either broke or got caught.

Foreman would also walk you down and throw -short- hooks and hybrids in stride. Watch the finishing blow he threw on Cooney.... it's reminiscent of Walcott's famous short shot in stride that landed on Ezzard.

I remember going to this gym after hours -when sparring was unregulated. There was this huge guy named "Erin" (strange name for an African American). Erin was 6'4 and about 275 lbs. I'm 5'10 and at the time I was about 157. I thought I could whip anyone and so got into the ring with him, figuring I'd move around him and eat him up from angles. It was easier said than done. The guy threw a wide hook thought caught me moving right and it slung me left across the ring. I think my feet were parallel with the canvas. I was exhausted after 3 rounds. That much strength and power wears out the smaller man.

Now, Jones is bigger and stronger than me, but the moral is the same: The contention that Foreman won't ever catch Jones in 36 minutes in a regulation ring is credible if Foreman was a big strong LHW or even a smallish HW. It is not credible given the reality of the match-up. Given that Foreman will not hesitate like he did on Morrison or Savarese to go to Jones.

Foreman will walk him down, he will cut off the ring eventually and if it takes to long he always has the option of throwing one of those hooks that will look like the Great Wall of China ---and sling Roy off balance and sideways. And then what? Is Jones going to take even a glancing blow off his temple?

....I'd be peeking from behind my fingers for this fight.